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Dumbing Down The Game Vs Showing The Players A Meta


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#41 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:34 AM

View PostDocBach, on 12 June 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:


all the balancing we've done against Inner Sphere weapons are going to be bad when we get Clan tech that's way better....

6PPCs=6 ER Large laser

2 AC20=One Ultra 20

1 LRM20=One LRM10 in weight and has no Minimum range

What DocBach's saying is true! 100% true. The Cheese we are fighting and complaining about now is the average Clan Capability.

#42 Kunae

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:36 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 June 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

6PPCs=6 ER Large laser

2 AC20=One Ultra 20

1 LRM20=One LRM10 in weight and has no Minimum range

What DocBach's saying is true! 100% true. The Cheese we are fighting and complaining about now is the average Clan Capability.

Like we're ever going to see clan mechs or tech... :)

#43 Lostdragon

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 June 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

6PPCs=6 ER Large laser

2 AC20=One Ultra 20

1 LRM20=One LRM10 in weight and has no Minimum range

What DocBach's saying is true! 100% true. The Cheese we are fighting and complaining about now is the average Clan Capability.


Yeah, considering how fubar some things are now it is hard not to think the introduction of Clan tech is going to be brutal.

#44 Demuder

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:41 AM

There is no sniping in the game.

Or rather, there is something that is a poor excuse for sniping. That is, try to put 1-2 alphas in the enemy before they get in range or before they do the same to you. If you kill one or two before you die a horrible death to a dancing light around you.... you did good ! Sniping in a 60ton+ megabot that can be seen from the moon ? Please, don't insult snipers.

And the op has the audacity to call the limitation of such brilliant gameplay "dumbing down" ?

#45 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:00 AM

View PostLostdragon, on 13 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Yeah, considering how fubar some things are now it is hard not to think the introduction of Clan tech is going to be brutal.

I am looking forward to brutal. It is how the Clans felt when they hit the IS in lore.

#46 Lostdragon

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 June 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

I am looking forward to brutal. It is how the Clans felt when they hit the IS in lore.


Yeah, but the problem with that is how it impacts gameplay. If Clans outclass IS in lore it is just part of the story but in this game it is a much bigger deal. We don't have BV to limit equipment values in a match so what happens when your teams heavies are a Dragon and a couple of Jagers and the other team has three Timberwolves?

I really want to play clan mechs but I am afraid it is a bad idea to introduce them after launch because I can see it being frustrating for people.

#47 NRP

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:08 AM

View PostSplitpin, on 12 June 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Totally agree Chavette, pandering to the lowest common denominator is not leading to a good game. First instinct in any combat game is close with the enemy and shoot him up, but it's not or shouldn't ever be a clever one. Every change to the game seems to be a nerf, a negative. Better would be a positive, if missiles are problem, provide more cover, buff AMS, reward thought and good tactics. And all the 'balancing adjustments' to weapons and fixation on ELO while totally ignoring any balance of mechs within and between lances just leaves me dumbfounded. Seems to me every problem of 'cheese' builds is not the build itself it's that there can be too many of them. One or two pop-snipers, AC40 whatever, 6PPC Stalkers, etc etc, is not a problem, 4 or more is, that's the balance issue, not whether missiles do .8 or 1.1 damage. Nerfing this or that is just 'fiddling while Rome burns' nerfing seismic sensor while introducing 3rd person, well ummm LOL.

I'm gonna quote this post because it is just so full of win. I don't think anyone has said it better or more succinctly.

#48 MaddMaxx

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostPurlana, on 12 June 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:


It's just as from them to shoot someone with ERPPCs at 100 away, as it is for me to shoot them with my AC/20. Except my AC/20 is much easier to destroy...


One can only marvel when one reads such drivel as an excuse to NERF a weapon. You do not understand the mechanics of the Brawl if you think that erPPC Mech isn't under extreme pressure when closed on, versus when back at 900m.

With the Heat potential and a LONG Cool down, that erPPC Mech need miss but once, and their adversary will have free reign to torture them for 8 seconds, as one of 2, or both things transpire inside their cockpit.

You assume that waiting that agonizing 8 seconds (Cool,Shoot,Miss,Cool) to shoot again, or watch their heat bar as it creeps back down to acceptable levels as to prevent a badly timed, and oft deadly shutdown, or both, is the same at 900m as it is at 200m.

You assume wrong... :)

#49 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:32 AM

I hate any claims of "dumbing down the game". They are usually wrong, in some cases just some elitist wanting to protect his favourite type of play style. I will not make any guesses on what the OP is doing ,but here's the thing, when it comes to balance:

Good players will always find the good builds, and if they are competitive minded, they'll also use them a lot, in hope of meeting others also using good builds and beating them with their hopefully superior skills.

If the number of good, competitive builds is too low, diversity suffers for the good players, and they startind finding the game boring, as there is just no variety to be had, unless you deliberately gimp yourself, and that's defeat the point of playing competitive.

If a tactic is difficult to counter, and any of the counters are more difficult to pull off, for a game it doesn't matter if that tactiics perfectly logical or not -it has to be nerfed. Otherwise every good player uses it and it gets boring.

It isn't at all about whether players don't like to play out of their comfort zone. It is realizing that the number of viable tactics or builds is really low. In a way, that is what is really "dumbing the game down" - everyone does the same small number of things all the time, and if anyone doesn't - that player will either feel dumb, or be considered dumb for doing it.

I don't want to look at a mech with 2 AC/10s and 2 Medium Lasers and have to say "Wow, that guy is dumb, why doesn'T he use 2 AC/20s or 4 PPCs or 6 LRM10s or 6 SRMs or whatever is the FOTM? He doesn't counter the FOTM with his build, and there are plenty of builds that can do the same with more firepower, or more armor, or more range, or better sustainability..."

#50 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostLostdragon, on 13 June 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Yeah, but the problem with that is how it impacts gameplay. If Clans outclass IS in lore it is just part of the story but in this game it is a much bigger deal. We don't have BV to limit equipment values in a match so what happens when your teams heavies are a Dragon and a couple of Jagers and the other team has three Timberwolves?

I really want to play clan mechs but I am afraid it is a bad idea to introduce them after launch because I can see it being frustrating for people.

If is frustrating then they were not ready for the pounding they will receive. Everyone knows the Clans equipment is superior to IS equipment. Clan Players will Mod their Payloads to the FotM according to meta balance and dance on our rotting bodies.

I think Clans need to be PvE so Clanners act like Clanners. If as a player base we are P&Ming as much as we are now v IS weapons balance, there will be an exodus equal to Kerensky after the fall of the Star League if the Clans are as powerful as they are in Canon.

Battle Value is no the answer... I don't even think BV2 can be used. By BV My Atlas is a match for a Secondline Medium. We would never face Timber Wolves and up cause their BV are just to dang high:

Timber Wolf (Prime)(2,353BV/2,737BV2)
Atlas-S2(3060+) ((BV1=2,147/BV2=2,389),
Atlas-K (BV1=1,649/BV2=2,175).
Thunder Hawk (BV1=1,967/BV2/2,577){That's 3 Gauss Still weaker BV than A 75 ton Mech!)

Orion IIC (BV1=1,923/BV2=2,392)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 June 2013 - 07:53 AM.


#51 DocBach

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:48 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 13 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:


Good players will always find the good builds, and if they are competitive minded, they'll also use them a lot, in hope of meeting others also using good builds and beating them with their hopefully superior skills.

If the number of good, competitive builds is too low, diversity suffers for the good players, and they startind finding the game boring, as there is just no variety to be had, unless you deliberately gimp yourself, and that's defeat the point of playing competitive.

I don't want to look at a mech with 2 AC/10s and 2 Medium Lasers and have to say "Wow, that guy is dumb, why doesn'T he use 2 AC/20s or 4 PPCs or 6 LRM10s or 6 SRMs or whatever is the FOTM? He doesn't counter the FOTM with his build, and there are plenty of builds that can do the same with more firepower, or more armor, or more range, or better sustainability..."


This is exactly the problem that I have with this game. Pretty much the only truly viable, competitive answer is to boat the Fotm weapon; everything becomes a clone of whatever is min-maxed for whatever balance destroying change PGI implemented in the last patch and every game becomes more reminiscent of ground hog day. You don't need balanced builds because this game works differently than the system it was based on, so you are actually putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have as many big guns that you can put in the same spot at once, and then the game suffers for it by becoming a stale battlefield of the same cloned 'Mechs doing the same things, over and over.

#52 Lostdragon

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:16 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 June 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

If is frustrating then they were not ready for the pounding they will receive. Everyone knows the Clans equipment is superior to IS equipment. Clan Players will Mod their Payloads to the FotM according to meta balance and dance on our rotting bodies.

I think Clans need to be PvE so Clanners act like Clanners. If as a player base we are P&Ming as much as we are now v IS weapons balance, there will be an exodus equal to Kerensky after the fall of the Star League if the Clans are as powerful as they are in Canon.

Battle Value is no the answer... I don't even think BV2 can be used. By BV My Atlas is a match for a Secondline Medium. We would never face Timber Wolves and up cause their BV are just to dang high:



I don't think BV is the answer, just pointing out how bad things could be with the way matchmaker works now. Honestly at this point I just hope the game doesn't crash and burn at release. We are getting awfully close to September and we still don't have any of the CW details we were told we would be getting a month ago. I don't think that bodes well.

#53 Purlana

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:59 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:


One can only marvel when one reads such drivel as an excuse to NERF a weapon. You do not understand the mechanics of the Brawl if you think that erPPC Mech isn't under extreme pressure when closed on, versus when back at 900m.

With the Heat potential and a LONG Cool down, that erPPC Mech need miss but once, and their adversary will have free reign to torture them for 8 seconds, as one of 2, or both things transpire inside their cockpit.

You assume that waiting that agonizing 8 seconds (Cool,Shoot,Miss,Cool) to shoot again, or watch their heat bar as it creeps back down to acceptable levels as to prevent a badly timed, and oft deadly shutdown, or both, is the same at 900m as it is at 200m.

You assume wrong... :)


I am saying that you incorrectly assumed that it takes more "skill" to shoot someone with a PPC, it doesn't. It isn't very hard to set up firing lines and pick someone apart before they reach you, especially if you have 6 other mechs doing the same thing. If you have enough "skill" to hit someone with an AC/20, you have enough skill to hit them with a PPC...

And by the time the brawlers get within 200 they should be hurting unless your team messed up badly and let them sneak around you.

Edited by Purlana, 13 June 2013 - 09:11 AM.


#54 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:23 AM

View PostDocBach, on 13 June 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:


This is exactly the problem that I have with this game. Pretty much the only truly viable, competitive answer is to boat the Fotm weapon; everything becomes a clone of whatever is min-maxed for whatever balance destroying change PGI implemented in the last patch and every game becomes more reminiscent of ground hog day. You don't need balanced builds because this game works differently than the system it was based on, so you are actually putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have as many big guns that you can put in the same spot at once, and then the game suffers for it by becoming a stale battlefield of the same cloned 'Mechs doing the same things, over and over.

isn't this what became of MW4, when played on-line?

#55 Chavette

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 13 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

If the number of good, competitive builds is too low, diversity suffers for the good players, and they startind finding the game boring, as there is just no variety to be had, unless you deliberately gimp yourself, and that's defeat the point of playing competitive.

It isn't at all about whether players don't like to play out of their comfort zone. It is realizing that the number of viable tactics or builds is really low.


I never said the game doesn't have its balance problems. This isn't a "shut up everything is good, the problem is you" post in disguise.

I'm talking about the intents and way some needed nerfs get carried out.

For example with the alpha nerf, they could nerf the CD further of problematic weapons to give them an even bigger close range disadvantage, so players obliterate the snipers when they ambush them. Instead they are working on ruining snipers altogether so people don't have to mind them at all.

Instead of giving them tools to overcome something, they are simply removing it, time after time.

That makes for a one facited mess in the end, instead of some conflict triangle where every side has strenghts and weaknesses.

Edited by Chavette, 13 June 2013 - 09:42 AM.


#56 MaddMaxx

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:40 AM

View PostPurlana, on 13 June 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:


I am saying that you incorrectly assumed that it takes more "skill" to shoot someone with a PPC, it doesn't. It isn't very hard to set up firing lines and pick someone apart before they reach you, especially if you have 6 other mechs doing the same thing. If you have enough "skill" to hit someone with an AC/20, you have enough skill to hit them with a PPC...

And by the time the brawlers get within 200 they should be hurting unless your team messed up badly and let them sneak around you.


I never assumed anything actually. The post I responded to stated that a brawling erPPC faces the same challenges as a 900M erPPC boat. I called BS on that and explained the difference, quite well, I might add. But if what you want is to NERF Team play?

Well then, that is for a different thread I suspect.

#57 Chavette

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostPurlana, on 13 June 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:


I am saying that you incorrectly assumed that it takes more "skill" to shoot someone with a PPC, it doesn't. It isn't very hard to set up firing lines and pick someone apart before they reach you, especially if you have 6 other mechs doing the same thing. If you have enough "skill" to hit someone with an AC/20, you have enough skill to hit them with a PPC...

And by the time the brawlers get within 200 they should be hurting unless your team messed up badly and let them sneak around you.


There are some units that brawl and will tear you up with your 6 snipers, easy. If you don't believe me I can introduce you.

#58 MaddMaxx

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:49 AM

View PostDocBach, on 13 June 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:


This is exactly the problem that I have with this game. Pretty much the only truly viable, competitive answer is to boat the Fotm weapon; everything becomes a clone of whatever is min-maxed for whatever balance destroying change PGI implemented in the last patch and every game becomes more reminiscent of ground hog day. You don't need balanced builds because this game works differently than the system it was based on, so you are actually putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have as many big guns that you can put in the same spot at once, and then the game suffers for it by becoming a stale battlefield of the same cloned 'Mechs doing the same things, over and over.


So you blame PGI for the players apparent overwhelming need to carry ONLY the BIGGEST and the BEST weapons? Really? Your solution to change that "overwhelming need" would be what exactly?

Make 1 mech, with 4 hard points, 4 weapons with 4 different feels, but similar, damage profiles? They we all pick our choice.

I have the perfect FIX. Remove the (er)PPC, the LBX10, the Gauss Rifle, the AC20 and the (er)LL, Large Pulse from the game. Now everyone will have to fight over what left for max firepower. Missiles are a crap shoot and can be left in.

Now we have only the 6 damage per, non-missile weapon units left. Surely that will make game play more interesting...

As soon as PGI made 3 weapons, one with 10 damage, one 15 damage and one @20 damage, then 4 Mechs, one @ 50t, one @ 70t, one @ 90t and one @ 100t, the stone was cast.

I guess it is PGI's fault after all.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 June 2013 - 09:52 AM.


#59 El Bandito

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:51 AM

View PostChavette, on 12 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

This might be a shocker, but for the last two months brawling was almost as effective as ever, you just had to put a little more effort into it. Coordination, element of surprise, all that good stuff the average player have no idea even existed in mwo.


I laughed heartily at this one. No way pugs will coordinate. Brawling was pretty much dead pre-June patch--unless you had a death wish and piloted a Streakcat.

#60 Purlana

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:52 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:


I never assumed anything actually. The post I responded to stated that a brawling erPPC faces the same challenges as a 900M erPPC boat. I called BS on that and explained the difference, quite well, I might add. But if what you want is to NERF Team play?

Well then, that is for a different thread I suspect.


The point was that both sides face challenges. 1) Brawlers must try to reach the Fire support with most of their armor 2) Fire support must try to strip most of a Brawlers armor before they reach the Fire support.

My point is #2 is much easier then #1...

Edited by Purlana, 13 June 2013 - 09:57 AM.






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