139 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

MaddMaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Agreed 100%. But with Randomness a very BIG no no. What is left. Convergence is not the solution sadly as it affects those Large heavy hitters less than the poor little guys who do not have the ranged firepower.

The only way s to fix the heavy alpha builds smashing people with one or two shots issue is to have some sort of what you call randoness, make it impossible to equip those loadouts, or make it impossible to fire all the weapons at once.

I do not want to see arbitrary limits placed on firing weapons so I am completely against the third option. Option 2 would require hard point size restrictions and I would prefer not to have that since it would stifle creativity and reduce customization options.

This leaves "randomness", which isn't random if you know how to mitigate it. Have the degree of inaccuracy based on a number of known values as Doc and many others have suggested. I think making this part of a reworked heat penalty system with static heat cap and higher dissipation is the best path forward for the game.

A system like this actually makes sense and is more intuitive than what the devs have come up with. It also adds a new element of skill to the game in that you need to time your shots with the right combination of speed, heat, target lock, etc. to make the shot land where you want.

[Chavette]

Gaan Cathal, on 13 June 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

We do, for once, agree on this I think.



Personally I have absolutely no issue with 4-PPC Stalkers or 2PPC+Gauss poptarts being viable builds. I have an issue with them being spectacularly better, not with them existing. Part of the problem with these discussions is that you actually have three 'factions' of players. Folks who want their shiney toys and stamp their feet, people who want said shiney toys deleted from the game with extreme prejudice and folks who want lots of viable options (aka balance).

Yup. There are a ton of trolls who will flame and and spam any thread about it thats starting a level headed discussion. They really need to pull out the banhammer, this place is overrun by trolls heavy.

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I laughed heartily at this one. No way pugs will coordinate. Brawling was pretty much dead pre-June patch--unless you had a death wish and piloted a Streakcat.

They need a quick command wheel where you hold a button down, select one of the options and let up the button and an objective will appear when you had the cursor, because no one is bothering with mapping.

They are working on giving rewards for completing such objectives, so thats something, but way too little for now.

Edited by Chavette, 13 June 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Chavette, on 13 June 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

I never said the game doesn't have its balance problems. This isn't a "shut up everything is good, the problem is you" post in disguise.

I'm talking about the intents and way some needed nerfs get carried out.

For example with the alpha nerf, they could nerf the CD further of problematic weapons to give them an even bigger close range disadvantage, so players obliterate the snipers when they ambush them. Instead they are working on ruining snipers altogether so people don't have to mind them at all.

That's assuming that the performance at close range is the biggest issue with these weapons. I do not think it is.

And if you're really a good Sniper - you'll just have to learn to manage to land 2 shots in 0.5 seconds. We're using fictional Battlemechs here, we're not weakly armored fleshy humans shooting at each other with guns. Some differences are to be expected.

[MustrumRidcully]

Galen Crayn, on 13 June 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

So, i have red a lot what goes wrong with the whole fixes, the system itself - but what would be THE solution to solve all the problems? Do you have a concept how PGI could solve the problem of balancing? The link with the novel rules is a good beginning. And that PGI needs help of the Pro`s shows the next week fix... I only say how you make a LPL NOT better....

It all depends on how far you want to go. But no solution will fix everything at once and immediately. There are too many variables for that.

Model 1:
Simpler approach to "fixing heat":
Set Heat capacity to either half the current value, or a fixed value of 30. Double the dissipation.
This still doesn't address potential Triple Gauss or Dual AC/20 Boats if they remain a problem. (Though I might check out if raising AC/20 heat to 7 or 8 would work out now. IT oculd even be that the PPC and ER PPC could do with a heat increase now - the improved dissipation compensates a lot.

Model 2:
Group Fire doesn't exist anymore for any ballistics or PPC that deals more than 5 points of damage per single shot (LBX doesn't count). Firing a PPC or Ballistic puts all other PPCs or Ballistics on a 0.25 second cooldown. (PGI can already do group-spanning cooldowns with Consumables, this should be feasible as well.)
These are the only weapons that even present us with a major pinpoint alpha problem. All other weapons have either low damage per shot weapons, spread their damage anyway, or are beams with a duration.

The result of this change is that a 4 PPC "not-really Alpha Strike" basically takes 0.75 seconds, which is a bit like beam duration of a 4 LL Laser Strike.

Model 3:
Revamp weapon stats and heat system.

The heat capacity needs to be lower, and for the below take it will need to be even lower than in Model 1, simply because the heat value per shot will be lower as well. SO a heat cap of around 15, but with "normal" dissipation.

Start with taking every weapon's statistics from the table top again, and determine damage and heat per shot by dividing TT damage by 10 and multiplying with the new effective cooldown.
Set fire rates to values between 3-5 seconds.
Or alternatively, using the above formula until you find a cooldown that limits the damage per shot to MAX [crit slots | weight / 2] of the weapon. (So a PPC would be okay as a 3.5 damage weapon every 3.5 seconds, and the AC/20 as a 10 damage every 5 seconds weapon. An AC/2 could actually deal 3 damage every 15 seconds!). That puts the max alpha ability of any mech at a likely maximum of 50 or less (mostly due to the crit limitation, the weight will probably put it eve lower, since a mech needs internal structure, armour and engine.)

You might probably want to spend an additional balancing pass afterwards:
- Normalize effective recycle rates (possibly bending the limits a bit)
- Give weapons that got a particularly high rate of fire a better DPS than the straight DPS conversion would indicate. (For example, calculate the effective DPS in 10 seconds of every weapon if it was translated as a 1 shot every 5 seconds weapon. This would allow weapons to fire 3 times in 10 seconds, because you can fire at 0, 5 and 10 seconds. So an AC/20 that deals 10 damage every 5 seconds has a DPS_10 of 30. A ML that fires every 1 shot every 2 seconds would have a DPS_10 of 12, but one that would fire every 5 seconds would have a DPS 15. This approach would basically mean that any weapons with a recycle time of less than 5 seconds gets DPS increases that will matter if the weapon user stays engaged long enough)
- Some TT weapon stats are plain unbalanced. AC/2 and AC/5 pretty much suck. Buff them.

And we still haven'T figured out whether Level 1 TEch and LEvel 2 is supposed to be balanced. If so, you need to tweak Level 2 Tech weapons so they are as powerful as Level 1 Tech. (Most Level 1 energy weapons would probably do fine by just getting DHS, but ballistics would not...)


---

I believe it's too great for sweeping changes. Model 1 and 2 are not that sweeping, I think, mostly changing an existing number in the system.

[Deathlike]

RG Notch, on 13 June 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Just curious, when should the tutorial have been made? Or when should it be made? Right now? With the current balance in place, or should they wait until they change things? Should they make a new one after each patch, or only after major changes? What about if these changes get changed?
I'm not arguing that new players need help, I'm just curious how they would get something that is accurate to the game and doesn't get outdated.

Look, I'm not saying that the tutorial would be all encompassing... it needs to basically explain its functionality.

For the sake of argument, let's say that they won't do an all encompassing tutorial.. but show videos of each new feature that has been added to the game.

Remember the Training Grounds videos on this website. Has anything been expanded since the debut of the following features...?

ECM
UAV
Artillery
Airstrikes
Seismic
Coolant

With the exception of Coolant, all of these features should have had some sort of video explaining the functionality of these things. Of course, things may change and videos should be updated as appropriate, but given that the newbie knows little of how it functions, what is the point of such features you add into the game.. to just be another "filler space item" like MGs and Flamers?

The point is, there is a fundamental basic understanding gap that a newbie faces vs the veteran.. and it really begins with the explanation or lack thereof of it. Unless this dramatically changes, the information gap will continue to widen. Maybe it's just me, but I don't remember a 3rd party source that details this stuff for newbies... maybe I'm not looking hard enough...

[CHWarpath]

Gaan Cathal, on 12 June 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

This. Simply bringing back convergence (and hooking it to the targeted mech's range, not the range of whatever hill is under your reticule when you're leading) would fix a whole heap of problems with low skill floor alpha builds.




That is the single dumbest comparison I have ever read. You clearly lack even the slightest concept of the principles of Marxism, and are just applying "socialist!" to any concept you dislike in the american fashion irrespective of it's accuracy. Using the guy's name doesn't make your idiocy sound more intellectual, it just makes it sound like you're trying to be intellectual.



No. A laser requires better aim because it needs to be on target ten times as long to do it's damage (assuming an AC/20 is on target for .1s for trigger pull).

The reason your laser accuracy is so high is that any damage from a laser beam makes that beam a 'hit', even if only one damage tick lands. It's a stupid way to do the metric, of course, and makes laser accuracy stats meaningless.

Its always enjoyable to read posts from people who pretend like Marx was a complicated person. There is nothing complicated about a totalitarian mindset and the failure to understand basic human nature. Marx did not get it, and neither do you.

[Zerberus]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Edit: And this thing should still be in closed beta, in my and many other peoples' opinion.

Probably the forums moreso than the game, but I agree

[Fate 6]

Splitpin, on 12 June 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Totally agree Chavette, pandering to the lowest common denominator is not leading to a good game. First instinct in any combat game is close with the enemy and shoot him up, but it's not or shouldn't ever be a clever one. Every change to the game seems to be a nerf, a negative. Better would be a positive, if missiles are problem, provide more cover, buff AMS, reward thought and good tactics. And all the 'balancing adjustments' to weapons and fixation on ELO while totally ignoring any balance of mechs within and between lances just leaves me dumbfounded. Seems to me every problem of 'cheese' builds is not the build itself it's that there can be too many of them. One or two pop-snipers, AC40 whatever, 6PPC Stalkers, etc etc, is not a problem, 4 or more is, that's the balance issue, not whether missiles do .8 or 1.1 damage. Nerfing this or that is just 'fiddling while Rome burns' nerfing seismic sensor while introducing 3rd person, well ummm LOL.

The answer isn't to nerf the weapon or to buff counters. Things that hard counter or counter aren't the best fixes. Case in point: ECM. If LRMs are broken, fix them. Don't nerf, don't buff, fix the actually problem (too easy to avoid, which they already took a pass at, and CT targetting, which they have yet to fix). AMS is an overlooked issue since every mech can take one, making LRMs impossible to use unless they are boated (RIP stock Cent and Dragon loadouts), and since AMS is purely passive it doesn't make a good addition to a thinking man's game. They took a step in the right direction with the PPC jump-sniper nerf. JJ shake barely affects close range fighting, but really hurts 800m sniping. They still need to take a pass at 4-6 PPC Stalkers in some way, but they fixed a problem without destroying things like 1-2 PPC medium mechs.

I completely agree with your assessment of the cheese mech problem. 1-2 on a team is not a problem, but 4+ starts to be one. Not having real weight balancing, or more importantly a matchmaking queue with total weight restrictions, really hurts the game. Mediums aren't useless because 1 AC40 Jager can instagib them. I can attempt to avoid a single mech on the map. It's when there are 5 mechs with 35+ damage pinpoint alpha strikes that I start to get frustrated with only being able to put 35-40 armor on my torso sections and wonder what the point of a 80kph medium is when that heavy is going just as fast.

Edited by Fate 6, 15 June 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Chavette]

Neverfar, on 15 June 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Bitter, bitter tears from the acolytes of the Church of Skill™.

Heresy to say so, but anything "skillful" about hitting something with 6-8 of a long range weapon can also be applied to other tasks in MWO. There's nothing particularly exclusively special about "point crosshair at dots, lead a little, click".

That is true, and the same skill from SC2 players can be used to build cities in Simcity with record speed and profit.

Shooting skills, positioning and teamwork needs to be priority over fighting RNG and some magic numbers the devs put in place because they can't manage to balance the game.

But if fighting synthetic obstacles over other players is what you are looking for, you might as well put your skills to use in a drunk driving simulator.

[MustrumRidcully]

Chavette, on 15 June 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

That is true, and the same skill from SC2 players can be used to build cities in Simcity with record speed and profit.

Shooting skills, positioning and teamwork needs to be priority over fighting RNG and some magic numbers the devs put in place because they can't manage to balance the game.

But if fighting synthetic obstacles over other players is what you are looking for, you might as well put your skills to use in a drunk driving simulator.

One thing to consider in all the RNG hate - most table top games contain RNG. Card games are often based around RNGs.

And yet there is also a difference between a skilled and an unskilled player in these games?

The only thing "aiming RNG" really does is - shift the type of skill required for the game. If you cannot trust your aim, you must find ways to minimize the effect of RNG.

In the table top Battletech game, maneuvering was something quite important - if you could ensure that your enemy rarely got a shot at you, but you often got one at him, the RNG would work out in your favor. (For my taste, BT is still too random, admittedly - critical hits can ruin any numerical or tactical superiority your team might have - BT is hardly a perfect game. But it has giant stompy robots!)

This part exist in MW:O already - Snipers use a maneuvering tactic to minimize the number of shots they take vs. the number of shots they dish out. Popping out for an alpha and then going back is exactly that. Unfortunately, this smart tactic is also paired with a mechanical advantage - because they shoot "boated alphas", convergence does the magic and lets them distribute their damage very effectively. RNG in this case wouldn't make sniping suck. It would just remove the one mechanical advantage it has, but retains the tactical advantage.

[Purlana]

Chavette, on 15 June 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Shooting skills, positioning and teamwork needs to be priority over fighting RNG and some magic numbers the devs put in place because they can't manage to balance the game.

The bolded portion is okay, but shooting skills? It's not hard at all to hit anything heavier then a light mech in MWO.

Edited by Purlana, 15 June 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I have to agree with the Op to an extent. The JJ shaking is a prime example. Poptarting is not effective, not against players using proper tactics and common sense. It is effective against a dumb player charging headlong across an open field with no cover. It is even more effective against these same dumb players if they don't have ER PPCs to fire back at the poptarts.

The thing of it is, this is where tactics come in. Got a poptart behind a ridge, hill or building and you aren't armed with ER PPCs, then get to cover and use it to screen a flanking manuver that allows you to get in close to them. I mean it is simple at this and by just using a little tactical thinking and manuvering, you have totally negated poptarting as a tactic.

However, because lazy players dont what to spend 5 mins circling the enemy to come at them from a better angle, PGI feels they have to make it so you can't hit anything while jumping so these same lazy players can now go back to charging headlong across and open field without cover. I mean that is much easier and faster right?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 15 June 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Viktor Drake, on 15 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I have to agree with the Op to an extent. The JJ shaking is a prime example. Poptarting is not effective, not against players using proper tactics and common sense. It is effective against a dumb player charging headlong across an open field with no cover. It is even more effective against these same dumb players if they don't have ER PPCs to fire back at the poptarts.

The thing of it is, this is where tactics come in. Got a poptart behind a ridge, hill or building and you aren't armed with ER PPCs, then get to cover and use it to screen a flanking manuver that allows you to get in close to them. I mean it is simple at this and by just using a little tactical thinking and manuvering, you have totally negated poptarting as a tactic.

However, because lazy players dont what to spend 5 mins circling the enemy to come at them from a better angle, PGI feels they have to make it so you can't hit anything while jumping so these same lazy players can now go back to charging headlong across and open field without cover. I mean that is much easier and faster right?

How fast do new players to the game pick up "the Game" and use tactice befor quitting becsue they are gettting cored in 15 seconds from two or more alpha from pop tarts. taking care of the new player exeriance is very omportant. its not a sink or swim topic. The game system needs to work correctly and the pop tart tatic exppints a broken game mechanic its that simple.
the solution was to impliment a sudo COF, but they over did it. next is the heat penalty. how many noobs can't figure out how to correctly put armor on the mech then expect them to know if you group more then x weapons of the same type you get more heat.... the frustration for new players is going to go up for no good reason.

you cant slap tatics on everything and call it a fix.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Speed dictates range. Armor increases survivability. Increase relative speed by 20% and increase armor values by 20% and then everyone would be bitching how you can't snipe anymore.

[Chavette]

Purlana, on 15 June 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

The bolded portion is okay, but shooting skills? It's not hard at all to hit anything heavier then a light mech in MWO.

I know. Its not a lot to ask for, but some must have problems with it, just think of the 3-5 guys on your team who score under 100dmg in 70t+ mechs.

Viktor Drake, on 15 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

However, because lazy players dont what to spend 5 mins circling the enemy to come at them from a better angle, PGI feels they have to make it so you can't hit anything while jumping so these same lazy players can now go back to charging headlong across and open field without cover. I mean that is much easier and faster right?

That is the exact problem. Throwing yourself at the enemy is the same as sending your villagers/scv-s into the enemy base, first thing you do in age of empires/starcraft, or going all mid in a moba game. You might win, but you're paying a different game, and probably won't.

Someone/something has to teach people better.

I just hope with CW coming people will put a little more time/effort in a match, but the rewards need to be higher so winning has some weight.

Edited by Chavette, 16 June 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

So, heard you were a Marxist...

[RG Notch]

Tombstoner, on 15 June 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

How fast do new players to the game pick up "the Game" and use tactice befor quitting becsue they are gettting cored in 15 seconds from two or more alpha from pop tarts. taking care of the new player exeriance is very omportant. its not a sink or swim topic. The game system needs to work correctly and the pop tart tatic exppints a broken game mechanic its that simple.
the solution was to impliment a sudo COF, but they over did it. next is the heat penalty. how many noobs can't figure out how to correctly put armor on the mech then expect them to know if you group more then x weapons of the same type you get more heat.... the frustration for new players is going to go up for no good reason.

you cant slap tatics on everything and call it a fix.

Especially if you are aiming at the stupidest players available. I mean it probably requires an advanced degree to figure out where your feet are facing relative to your torso. Don't worry they are dumbing the game down for the LCD gamer with 3rd person. If you want a broad audience aim low, as stupid people are the largest demographic. Look at some of these posts.

[Chavette]

Darren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

So, heard you were a Marxist...

Lets just say I'm not surprised by anything here anymore...

[buttmonkey]

i would say the dumbing down comes from the ppc monster poptart builds and other builds similar (mechs are not supposed to function like that), and the removal of things like collisions (you dont even need to look where your going)

[Soy]

buttmonkey, on 16 June 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

[...]the ppc monster poptart builds and other builds similar (mechs are not supposed to function like that)[...]

Edited by Soy, 16 June 2013 - 12:51 PM.