39 replies to this topic

[Unbound Inferno]

Lumpy Gash, on 12 June 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Fault is with your build and the need to have weapons that aim for you, take SRMS not streaks as backups.

If you cant understand why, there is no point in anyone posting after what has been said above.

So, you want me to trade 4x Streaks for SRMs? Have more weight in my backup weapons and nerf my primary support role? I'm afraid that's not an option that works well for my indented function.

CancR, on 12 June 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

It would be much simpler if they striped away stealth and angel ecm, and just had the two effects of Guardian:
~Longer lock on time
~missile lock loss at some intervals.

I had to look at it again, if we were to do that it would need to be something like this;

Guardian ECM
~1.5 tons, 2 slots
~Longer lock on time
~missile lock loss at some intervals.
~can swap to a counter mode for ECCM and jam one enemy Guardian ECM

Angel ECM (x2 or higher cost of Guardian, restricted on some mech variants)
~1.5 tons, 2 slots
~Longer lock on time, prevents bonuses from ARTEMIS
~reduces detection range and prevents indirect fire
~missile lock loss at some intervals.
~can swap to a counter mode for ECCM
~counts as two Guardian ECM


Stealth is actually Stealth Armor requiring a Guardian ECM with it (x2 cost of Ferro Fibrous, restricted to some mech variants)
~Steal Armor is the same value as regular armor but takes up two slots in the Arms, Legs and side Torso (12 slots itself but requires its an ECM too, making 14 total and 1.5 tons)
~Stealth is on a per mech basis, only works on the equipped mech so long as its within an ECM field on Disrupt
~Blocks missile locks, drastically reduces the range the unit can be targeted from
~When "on" it generates 10 Heat


Heh, if they did that fix I wouldn't mind the no missile lock either with what they'd have to do to get it.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 12 June 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Otto Cannon]

Lumpy Gash, on 12 June 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Fault is with your build and the need to have weapons that aim for you, take SRMS not streaks as backups.

If you cant understand why, there is no point in anyone posting after what has been said above.

Whether he has backup weapons or not is completely irrelevant. Randomly reducing a player to backup weapons only is still awful game design.

[DocBach]

"hey if you don't shoot three PPC's and gauss into the CT with every shot, you don't have enough skill to input how this game works! NOW REVERSE THE JUMPING EFFECTS PGI ITS BREAKING THE GAME! I WENT INTO EPILEPTIC SEIZURES FROM THE RETICLE SHAKE!"

[CancR]

Unbound Inferno, on 12 June 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

So, you want me to trade 4x Streaks for SRMs? Have more weight in my backup weapons and nerf my primary support role? I'm afraid that's not an option that works well for my indented function.


I had to look at it again, if we were to do that it would need to be something like this;

Guardian ECM
~1.5 tons, 2 slots
~Longer lock on time
~missile lock loss at some intervals.
~can swap to a counter mode for ECCM and jam one enemy Guardian ECM

Angel ECM (x2 or higher cost of Guardian, restricted on some mech variants)
~1.5 tons, 2 slots
~Longer lock on time, prevents bonuses from ARTEMIS
~reduces detection range and prevents indirect fire
~missile lock loss at some intervals.
~can swap to a counter mode for ECCM
~counts as two Guardian ECM


Stealth is actually Stealth Armor requiring a Guardian ECM with it (x2 cost of Ferro Fibrous, restricted to some mech variants)
~Steal Armor is the same value as regular armor but takes up two slots in the Arms, Legs and side Torso (12 slots itself but requires its an ECM too, making 14 total and 1.5 tons)
~Stealth is on a per mech basis, only works on the equipped mech so long as its within an ECM field on Disrupt
~Blocks missile locks, drastically reduces the range the unit can be targeted from
~When "on" it generates 10 Heat


Heh, if they did that fix I wouldn't mind the no missile lock either with what they'd have to do to get it.

A much more elaborated definition of each the the suites then I could give off hand, but it's what I have been calling for since they introduced the Frankenstein ecm.

[Unbound Inferno]

CancR, on 12 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

A much more elaborated definition of each the the suites then I could give off hand, but it's what I have been calling for since they introduced the Frankenstein ecm.

It could be another alternative. I'll make another topic about that option later depending how this poll works out.

[CancR]

I don't understand why there are so many posts and so many new threads about it. Making ECM just be the single ECM suite is the only really option.

If PGI suddenly decided that not enough people used the large laser, and they buffed it so it has the medium laser heat and cycle time, no one would argue 'Well, maybe it would be a little bit better if there was a target lock to delay it firing, then it would be perfect.'

Like it or not mechwarrior is still battle tech rules.

[DocBach]

CancR, on 12 June 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Like it or not mechwarrior is still battle tech rules.

to be fair, only some rules in this game were taken from batletech, though usually most of the game destroying balance problems are caused by the willful ignoring of how those rules were made for randomized occurrences, then adding player skill into the mix and removing the randomness.

[redreaper]

What geniuses think that requiring another 1.5 ton or 1 ton piece of equipment to counter ECM is a good idea its terribly implemented ECM should reduce detection range for a ECM carrying mech by 500 to 600 meters and allys within its bubble by maybe 300 along with the increased lock time and negation of art and tag bonus ECM should not completely blind u tactically at close range and prevent lock on weapons from being fired.

[General Taskeen]

For once, I see many people think-tanking in an ECM thread. Basically just let ECM be ECM is the main thing. If ECM right now is like a super AECM, except AECM never prevented LRM fire, only SSRM tracking fire AND even then SSRMs could dumb fire.

So if AECM were to hit the game right now, following current ECM logic, AECM would block direct fire weapons or refract lasers into rainbows or block missiles with 0 counters.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 June 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

More like the Angel shouldn't be introduced at all if they keep the Guardian like this - its doing the same job.
Same with Stealth Armor.

[skullman86]

If PGI really likes ECM as a hardcounter, they need to make it available to all mechs or they need to make it carry weight in the match maker. I mean, why even bother trying to match weight classes if there is a good chance one team is going to have a guaranteed upper hand against 1/3 of the weapons and the other isn't?

Personally, I would rather they just go with the soft counter version that everyone always posts the specs to. If they had done that in the very beginning, they wouldn't have needed to create a whole bunch of counters to balance it out. Health reduction, PPC vulnerability, dedicated hardpoints, BAP, and now it is countered by UAVs and seismic sensors? It's like they were worried the last two would outdo it, so they made it super OP in advance only to nerf it in the long run anyway.

I would throw it in the list with heat, machine guns, SSRM, and flamers. They need to go back to square one.

Edited by skullman86, 12 June 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Well, that's what the Beagle Active Probe change was recently - it now counters ECM in close range. Its quite the opposite role from what it should have.

Something needs to be altered, and there is any number of ways of doing it that isn't making it an on/off switch.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 12 June 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[DocBach]

Unbound Inferno, on 12 June 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Well, that's what the Beagle Active Probe change was recently - it now counters ECM in close range. Its quite the opposite role from what it should have.

Wait, you mean the electronics that the electronics countermeasures exists to block blocking the electronic countermeasures is the opposite how things are suppose to work?

[Unbound Inferno]

DocBach, on 12 June 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Wait, you mean the electronics that the electronics countermeasures exists to block blocking the electronic countermeasures is the opposite how things are suppose to work?

Hahaha! Well said, and yes.

The Beagle Active Probe blocks a Guardian ECM on Disrupt within 150m of the mech carrying it.
Where it should be the Guardian ECM that blocks the Beagle Active Probe's information gathering - but it still does that somewhat. The ECM reduces the range mechs can target them where the BAP increases it.

The BAP weighs 1.5 tons and 2 slots, although it should be standard on nearly every mech now I still don't see it on some that should have it. Probably a bit of a problem with the description not telling that. Well, everyone except ECM units require it, as that benefit doesn't work with the ECM counter or while the mech's ECM is on disrupt. But you do get the range increase.

[DocBach]

One of the big problems I'd say with information warfare is there is no real way to gain information beyond seismics, and no in game communications makes relaying information difficult for scouts.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

there's still a way for ECM to block Beagle, if they made Beagle have additional features;

Allow Beagle to not only get target information faster, but get more of it - say you have a Beagle and press the default hot key for it to probe when a target is within 150 meters and get a complete readout of the target to include location of equipment - find out information like if a build is running two tons of machine gun ammo in its left leg but only 14 points of armor, or an XL or whatever.

Let ECM block that.

Let Beagle see targets like Seismic sensors within a 150m bubble, but since its an active radar, allow the beagle user to actually target an enemy, have ECM block this.

ECM can block locks, Beagle can counter that, Beagle can gain more information and situational awareness, ECM counters that.

[Unbound Inferno]

That'd be a cool detail to add - the ability to know if the enemy actually has anything left to shoot with or how much.

But I'd rather they fix the basic problems with ECm first before adding more.

[DocBach]

Believe me, I've been actively petitioning to change ECM since it hit - I've since realized there's no changing its base function in this game, but we can recommend changes to other systems to make it less boring.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Unbound Inferno]

Well it needs changing. Heck, I'm willing to bet half if not more of the people voting on this poll to not change it are doling it specifically because they don't want to loose the no-lock missiles - but not taking into regard that's not how it should work. They just want to keep using it that way.

[DocBach]

"if a broken mechanic makes the game easier for me, I don't think its broken"

Edited by DocBach, 13 June 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Almsot want to make the poll say that. Probably shouldn't.

But seriously, the way it works now might function... if the hard-counter of BAP was taken more. But its not and it shouldn't be for that reason - they really need to redo it all.