93 replies to this topic

[Darkside7777]

Seriously, this topic needs more attention. So ******* simple but they're dragging their heels for some reason.

[NachoFoot]

FupDup, on 12 June 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Because opening up weapons.xml and changing ppc_heat = '8' to '10' and erppc_heat = '11' to '15' is hard.

That's a little extreme. Adding just +1 heat to each is sufficient.

[Theodor Kling]

I am not sure if going bafck to the original values is best. But I seriously wonder whey they don play aroudn more with those simple numbers more on every weapon system. PPC too powerfull tweak it. Not drastic, only slightly, letś say fro heat 8 to 9 for a test. If this shows sings of going into the right direction, raise it further. And do so WEEKLY. As it is we often have to wait a month inbetween changes to a weapon, and then it's often a big, drastic changethat overdoes it.
Why not small changes, but more often to gradually reach acceptable values?
Won solve all the more complex problems ( like the convergence discussion) but it would be a start.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Suprentus, on 12 June 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

[DELETED CONTENT]

So you think PPC's are going avoid the nerfhammer? LOL

Edited by Destined, 13 June 2013 - 11:32 AM.
Quote Clean Up

[Leimrey]

Because PPCs are not the problem, pinpoint alphas and boating are. Even if they nerf PPCs into uselessness (which I fully expect PGI to do), people will still have large lasers and those can hit even harder and with even more precision in capable hands.

Edited by Leimrey, 12 June 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[Rushin Roulette]

However, the large lasers dont have the range of PPCs or ERPPCs. They also do not cause pinpoint damage (Especially at the long and extreme ranges) like the PPCs.

Being hitscan weapons, it is very hard to keep the lasers on one section of your target without spreading some damage to other sections (The further away the target is and movement increases the difficulty exponentially). With PPCs you either hit or miss... but with a hit, then 100% of the damage is applied to a small area.

EDIT: And Large Lasers deal 1 less damage per shot in total (cause less heat though to balance it out)

In summary;

PPC /ERPPC
+range
+damage per shot
+pinpoint damage
-Heat
-Weight
-Minimum range for regular PPCs

Lasers
+weight
+heat
-no minimum range
-damage per shot
-damage over time casues the damage to be spread
-shorter range than PPCs

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 12 June 2013 - 11:22 PM.

[Snowhawk]

People will always use or boat the most effective weapons... if you nerf the Ppc's they will switch to Large Lasers. Do you like 6 Large Laser Stalkers (it's like a laser scalpel)....?
I still think boating too much of effective weapons is the problem... but if you nerf this weapons they will become worthles in single or dual configurations.

[Monkeystador]

I wish they would adress the issue of the very precise conversion of grouped weapons. Especially over long distance. A kind of spread through lack of convergence precision needs to be introduced.

[Leimrey]

Rushin Roulette, on 12 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

However, the large lasers dont have the range of PPCs or ERPPCs. They also do not cause pinpoint damage (Especially at the long and extreme ranges) like the PPCs.

Being hitscan weapons, it is very hard to keep the lasers on one section of your target without spreading some damage to other sections (The further away the target is and movement increases the difficulty exponentially). With PPCs you either hit or miss... but with a hit, then 100% of the damage is applied to a small area.

EDIT: And Large Lasers deal 1 less damage per shot in total (cause less heat though to balance it out)

In summary;

PPC /ERPPC
+range
+damage per shot
+pinpoint damage
-Heat
-Weight
-Minimum range for regular PPCs

Lasers
+weight
+heat
-no minimum range
-damage per shot
-damage over time casues the damage to be spread
-shorter range than PPCs

You can surgically remove components off heavies and assaults without too much effort even when they're moving at full speed. Fast moving mediums and lights? They just melt, doesn't matter where you hit them. I wrote that large lasers hit harder because you can effectively boat 5 of them on a stalker, which results in 45 damage, while you can effectively boat only 4 PPCs, which is 40 damage. It all comes down to the skill of the person firing them and their ability to keep the beam on target, true, but it's not that hard.

[Inkarnus]

well i dont agree still with the changes to PPCs that they are not revertet
there were somebuffs to LL too if i mind correctly?
just revert everything back and tweak that heatscale thingy from
there and i think we are good to have a great game if adaptet
the right way and if harsh rules are createt without hurting some chassis

[Rushin Roulette]

Try doing that surgery if that Assault is 600 meters away and you are both moving in a different direction. Hitting one section and keeping that large laser on target on that one section for the whole beam duration is extremely difficult , as you will be spreading the damage over at least 2 different sections.

Up close... no problem. Id say hitting one section is also easy on a medum up close, but the further away you get, hitting and staying one point for the whole beam duration becomes increasingly difficult.

PPCs dont have to worry about that, as there is no beam duration.

[Mahnmut]

Maybe reverting the heat values are not the only answer. But why not try it first and see how if goes rather than coding a whole new solution?

Personally I think that the old heat values + the damage for exceeding the heat cap will help a lot.

[Lazy Eye]

PPCs were underpowered compared to other weapons, particularly the medium laser. Now that other weapons have been changed, PPCs are now more powerful than other weapons.

Or put another way, the "issue" is that other weapons were changed and the PPC was not...

[Modo44]

Blizzard has been doing this with good effect in SC2: Buff something into OP territory on purpose to make everybody and their dog try it, nerf it back bit by bit to where it can be deadly, but only with enough skill. To me, it looks like PGI is doing exactly that to the PPCs (among other things). You may disagree with the specifics of the jj shake or the anti-boating stuff, but both fit exactly into the overall best practice.

[Kmieciu]

Due to HSR the PPC became easier to use than a Large Laser, therefore they should be less heat efficient.
I propose +1 heat for both PPC and ERPPC.

Edited by Kmieciu, 13 June 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[PanzerMagier]

Leimrey, on 12 June 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Because PPCs are not the problem, pinpoint alphas and boating are. Even if they nerf PPCs into uselessness (which I fully expect PGI to do), people will still have large lasers and those can hit even harder and with even more precision in capable hands.

Can't really take this seriously because you run premades of ppc boats. Now if you all were using LL. It would be a different game... One I might actually enjoy.

But I guess, you can't stop a scumbag from being a scumbag right? Just because there is a broken mechanic, it means you absolutely MUST abuse it right? In the name of beta testing right? Like they don't already know that ppc boating is broken? RIGHT? right.

[Lazy Eye]

PanzerMagier, on 13 June 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

Just because there is a broken mechanic, it means you absolutely MUST abuse it right? In the name of beta testing right? Like they don't already know that ppc boating is broken? RIGHT? right.

I'm proud to say I've NEVER taken a twin AC/20 boat. I think I did try out a Gaussapult between resets about a year ago, when they were all the rage, just to see how hard it was to use.

It wasn't.

When the next reset happened, I went back to using 'mechs that require skill to use, which is why my stats are so 'bad' (like I really give a s***?)

I still play for the about-1-in-20-games where nobody is using a dodgy loadout and your success is defined by your ability to use multiple, varied weapons on a single 'mech and co-ordinate with your team mates.

[PanzerMagier]

Lazy Eye, on 13 June 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

I'm proud to say I've NEVER taken a twin AC/20 boat. I think I did try out a Gaussapult between resets about a year ago, when they were all the rage, just to see how hard it was to use.

It wasn't.

When the next reset happened, I went back to using 'mechs that require skill to use, which is why my stats are so 'bad' (like I really give a s***?)

I still play for the about-1-in-20-games where nobody is using a dodgy loadout and your success is defined by your ability to use multiple, varied weapons on a single 'mech and co-ordinate with your team mates.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. I play with almost everything that isn't cheese, I still do reasonably well. At least I don't get 2 digit scores every match like half the pugs in my games... ~Sigh~

I have played with cheese mechs before but solely to understand the opposite end of pointy stick. Duel ac20 mech is a lot harder I than I thought but still pretty easy. Knowing the mech from both angles I can say it's a click to win button mech.

But that's kinda off topic.

PPC boats aren't click to win. They're more like oh look if I click this button, I look extremely cool and skillful. You don't necessarily win with them ,but they do give the moronic fallacy that you're good, "because look I can kill a mech in 1 shot 900m away, I'm so pro right?!". It's not click to win this fight like a duelac20 jager. It's click to show i'm a ********* and extremely good at it.

[Jonneh]

Some real bitterness in this thread, but not much usable feedback. Is that really the forums you want?

Seems to me this is just die hard battletech "pgi suck" whine. You're just adding nothing to the solution.

Edited by Jonneh, 13 June 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[Adridos]

BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD AGAIN START B*TCHING AT THEM FOR NOT LOWERING THOSE DAMN VALUES!

BECAUSE IT WERE THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES WHO HAD BEEN CREATING A HUNDRED THREADS A DAY TELLING: "PULL OUT YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR *** AND LOWER TEH HEAT VALUE, PPC IS USELESS!"


AND NOW YOU B*TCH AT THEM FOR ACTUALLY LISTENING TO YOU FOR ONE DAMN TIME? ARE YOU NUTS?