93 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

The bottom line is that the old PPC took skill to use because the projectile was slow and it gave you a LOT of heat buildup. It was much easier to walk up to someone from cover and unload on the rare PPC boat with 4 ML and you roasted them.

Now just about everyone has PPCs because they are way too heat efficient for the damage they deal all to one spot. I've seen lights running around with 2 of them and still maintain good speed (this was my old cicada build for 8 mans).

PPCs were crap because the projectile was slow AND because the heat was high. Now that both are advantageous they are the top tier weapon that blows everything else away.

Pure and simple.... remove one status back to the old value or tweak both slightly (but more than either singly). If I recall the old PPCs were 1000 m/s which is just faster than an AC/20 round. I remember dodging those shots in a 50 kph atlas at no problem under 500m even with the old easy aim heat mode.

We hate JJ sniping because it is too strong. We want the PPC nerfed (either directly or by proxy) because it is 100% better than every other weapon. The heat penalty for PPCs needs to be 1 at a time or massive heat buildup unless you are an assault mech and you may fire two at a time.

Edited by Glythe, 13 June 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Grimarch]

For me PPC's are nearly OK, i find their damage to range capability a little powerful but its the same as a gauss (well not quite but you know what i mean), the issue is the accurancy of the damage at that range.

I think the minor tweak they could do is two fold, adjust the convergence slightly to stop those pesky 3 PPC stalkers and also to implement that maybe have the convergence worsen with higher heat values?

Anyway every one seems to moan about configs where a mech is using one type of weapon solely. Well we are human and using the same thing over and over again we get better at using it. You could easily adjust the loadouts of these mechs by saying ER-PPC's have the same min range as PPC's, presto the builds need to be reconfigured to take that into account. Yes i know thats not the true stats for the weapon, but its a game not a reconstruction of the much loved TT game.

Grim

Edited by Grimarch, 13 June 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'd hate to see it go back, but I am starting to think that would be for the best. Now my Catapult K2 will have to change from 2PPC, 2 LPLasers to 2 Gauss or 2 AC20 again. Sad, the K2 looks like it should have huge PPC barrels

[Karl Streiger]

Glythe, on 13 June 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Pure and simple.... remove one status back to the old value or both. If I recall the old PPCs were 1000 m/s which is just faster than an AC/20 round. I remember dodging those shots in a 50 kph atlas at no problem under 500m even with the old easy aim heat mode.

^This.

And it was much more fun to score hits at maximum range...with those slow projectiles... man i loved that old hot'n'slow Peps much more. Cool'n'Fast is childisch crap.

[Glythe]

Grimarch, on 13 June 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

For me PPC's are nearly OK, i find their damage to range capability a little powerful but its the same as a gauss (well not quite but you know what i mean), the issue is the accurancy of the damage at that range.

You could easily adjust the loadouts of these mechs by saying ER-PPC's have the same min range as PPC's, presto the builds need to be reconfigured to take that into account. Yes i know thats not the true stats for the weapon, but its a game not a reconstruction of the much loved TT game.

The issue of the PPC is no ammunition (saves weight), high pinpoint damage, extremely easy to hit with and low heat. That combination beats every other weapon choice. Ballistics would begin to compare if they had double ammunition per ton.

Giving ERPPCs a minimum range would be fantastic. I'd like to suggest 250-300m as it is supposed to be a long range sniper weapon. Make clan PPCs be the ones with no min range.

[Deathlike]

Even a slight increase of heat by 1 (to 9 heat) is better than no change at all. Although, the projectile speed should also be reverted because of HSR.. these two changes should be sufficient (at least for me anyways).

At this point, if that ONE person in the balance team thinks that PPCs are "just right", every else gets the middle finger. That's kinda the problem these days.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 June 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sephlock, on 12 June 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Honestly I think its more of a convergence issue than anything else, because if you are just carrying a single PPC the current state of PPCs feels about right, IMHO.

This right here. Run 3 PPCs on a Stalker (since the Awesome has trouble with Hit boxes). See how that feels. The problem is in the player base doing something that was not done in game, cause the Original DEVs knew overkill would be a bad idea. On TT we call the players who make 6 PPC designs MunchKins. Cause they love using Munchie quick kill designs or super fast designs or Invulnerable designs. Its not the the game's fault it's the player's. my philosophy is bring what you want, so I can try everything to kill it.

PPCs need their heat returned to TT values. It will not end Boating of them but it will/should make some folks think twice before loading more than 4.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 June 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[Pinselborste]

OneEyed Jack, on 12 June 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

That's very helpful. "The solution is balance." Brilliant. You should apply for a job at PGI. You have no clue what it would take to balance, but since you're a video-gamer, and TT is old and not a video game, it must be wrong in some indefinable way. Definitely send this in an email to support. It fixes everything.

to balance the game it would need its own stats designed for realtime combat and aiming skill of a player instead of a dice.

The TT stats where made for a game that works totally different, and they where tested for those game mechanics and not a real time game.

PGI should have designed their own weapon stats that fit with the game mechanics of mwo, not use something that was never designed to work with those.

[Suprentus]

IV Amen, on 12 June 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

So you think PPC's are going avoid the nerfhammer? LOL

In the way people in this thread are oh so graciously asking for? Yes.

[Zyllos]

I think adding +1.0 heat to both the PPC and ERPPC would be fine.

But a new system needs to be introduced which causes a Cone-of-Fire to happen. I really like Homeless Bill's idea: http://mwomercs.com/...ans/page__st__0

It's basically setup that each mech has a Targeting Computer (TC) value of 100. Firing weapons increase the TC value. TC values are calculated before weapons are fired. The TC value will decrease at a high rate, most likely at 100 per second. If the TC is over 100, you will begin to receive a Cone-of-Fire and locking speed is reduced.

If your TC is over 200, the Cone-of-Fire will be very large and you will not be able to lock on.

Each weapon will have it's own unique TC value. So large caliber weapons will have higher TC values while smaller caliber weapons will have smaller TC values.

[MustrumRidcully]

PanzerMagier, on 12 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

You know. Why can't you. You buffed PPC's and ER PPC's by decreasing their heat.
Why can't you just undo that, PGI? A simple change of one single value...

Why?

I am not claiming the devs have actually done any meaningful math on this.

I believe my math is somewhat meaningful on this.

Here's a graph where I tracked how much weight in weapons, double heat sinks and ammo you need to bring to deliver certain damage in a certain amount of time. This assumes that you use 10 "free" engine heat sinks, and has you try to reach the targeted damage output without overheating or running out of ammo (and you can do the trick multiple times, so we get some semi-realistic ammo numbers.)




As you see, the PPC is really better than most weapons when you look at its damage output for tonnage over 4 seconds. 60 damage is easy to deal in 4 seconds.
But 120 in 8? It suddenly gets more difficult for the PPC. And 180 in 12? Even the AC/10, the red-headed step child of Auto-Cannons in the current metagame, is more attractive then the PPC.

If you raise its heat, you make the PPC only be able to complete in the 4 second segment with other weapons. That means it will be mostly useless and outperformed by most other weaponry.

(Note: The damage calculations are based on how many shots a weapon can have fired in the alloted time, and assumes we start shooting at 0 seconds. That means for the 60 damage goal in 4 seconds in this chart, you don't need 6 PPCs, since you can fire at 0 seconds and 4 seconds. And so on)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 13 June 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[sokitumi]

Could they be a little hotter? Sure. Would it matter? Not really, most decent snipers don't fire on recycle anyway.

There're a ton of ways to deal with PPC stalkers...just avoid getting shot by it, don't go toe to toe in your weapon for all seasons atlas and be surprised when you die in 2 alphas.

So reminiscent of 3G 4LL daishi's in MW4... yeah they're strong... but they're also slow and easy to kill.

[Gamgee]

PPC's are just too damn good.

Low heat, super high damage, fast projectile, pin point accuracy, no ammo, good in close combat, good in mid range combat, good with singles, good being boated, good at long range, good sniping, good at counter sniping.

Good.

Bad? Uh..... hills? But while the enemy is suppressed there is usually some other ER/PPC boat going around the hill to shoot them. Where is your god now? Given the reduction in player numbers its clear this game is beginning to collapse or become super niche. It needs to be balanced asap. When it had its heat values reduced the game was much different. Subsequent patches have made what was necessary at one point in history, now become the most overkill weapon.

[Purlana]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 June 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

I am not claiming the devs have actually done any meaningful math on this.

I believe my math is somewhat meaningful on this.

Here's a graph where I tracked how much weight in weapons, double heat sinks and ammo you need to bring to deliver certain damage in a certain amount of time. This assumes that you use 10 "free" engine heat sinks, and has you try to reach the targeted damage output without overheating or running out of ammo (and you can do the trick multiple times, so we get some semi-realistic ammo numbers.)




As you see, the PPC is really better than most weapons when you look at its damage output for tonnage over 4 seconds. 60 damage is easy to deal in 4 seconds.
But 120 in 8? It suddenly gets more difficult for the PPC. And 180 in 12? Even the AC/10, the red-headed step child of Auto-Cannons in the current metagame, is more attractive then the PPC.

If you raise its heat, you make the PPC only be able to complete in the 4 second segment with other weapons. That means it will be mostly useless and outperformed by most other weaponry.

(Note: The damage calculations are based on how many shots a weapon can have fired in the alloted time, and assumes we start shooting at 0 seconds. That means for the 60 damage goal in 4 seconds in this chart, you don't need 6 PPCs, since you can fire at 0 seconds and 4 seconds. And so on)

Those values are only relevant in a brawl. At long / medium range no one is going to stand in the open and trade shots with you.

Even in a brawl, higher alphas are more valuable because of torso twisting and spreading of DMG, which is why you don't see many people boating small lasers and SRM6s. I mean look at the chart, how many Splat cats and small laser boats do you see in game...?

Edited by Purlana, 13 June 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 June 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

I am not claiming the devs have actually done any meaningful math on this.

I believe my math is somewhat meaningful on this.

Here's a graph where I tracked how much weight in weapons, double heat sinks and ammo you need to bring to deliver certain damage in a certain amount of time. This assumes that you use 10 "free" engine heat sinks, and has you try to reach the targeted damage output without overheating or running out of ammo (and you can do the trick multiple times, so we get some semi-realistic ammo numbers.)




As you see, the PPC is really better than most weapons when you look at its damage output for tonnage over 4 seconds. 60 damage is easy to deal in 4 seconds.
But 120 in 8? It suddenly gets more difficult for the PPC. And 180 in 12? Even the AC/10, the red-headed step child of Auto-Cannons in the current metagame, is more attractive then the PPC.

If you raise its heat, you make the PPC only be able to complete in the 4 second segment with other weapons. That means it will be mostly useless and outperformed by most other weaponry.

(Note: The damage calculations are based on how many shots a weapon can have fired in the alloted time, and assumes we start shooting at 0 seconds. That means for the 60 damage goal in 4 seconds in this chart, you don't need 6 PPCs, since you can fire at 0 seconds and 4 seconds. And so on)

So according to your "math"
small lasers are the best weapons in the game?
Wow, genius, you forgot range in your silly statistics...

Clearly you play too little and forum too much. Have you played some 8man premades recently? Or just pugged?
The ppc boats are everywhere and it takes nigh skill to make them effective. Do your obtuse statistics tell you that?
Or do you simply like a game where everyone just snipes, points and shoots, with no regard to complex weapon mechanics or gameplay balance...

You know there's this great game for your type, it's called call of duty.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

PanzerMagier, on 12 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

You know. Why can't you. You buffed PPC's and ER PPC's by decreasing their heat.
Why can't you just undo that, PGI? A simple change of one single value...

Why?

PanzerMagier, on 12 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

You know. Why can't you. You buffed PPC's and ER PPC's by decreasing their heat.
Why can't you just undo that, PGI? A simple change of one single value...

Why?

Because "tweaking" weapons will not fix the broken convergence issue?

[Trauglodyte]

Heat per weapon/second is only one instrument in the tuning process. I'm all for bringing the PPC back to its pre-change heat levels but keeping the projectile speed where it is. But, that isn't enough because it does nothing to change what is going on. Good snipers utilize alphas to extreme levels when it is most advantageous. Bads spam high heat level weapons and shut down only to die due to their stupidity (while thinking that they're good cause they vaporized someone through luck). PGI's attempt at the anti-boating will work but it is clunky and unintuitive to teh point where it will be detrimental to new players. Heat scale penalties against cooling and convergence along with a convergence penalty based on mech speed would have been more then acceptable because, as it has been said in numerous threads tons of times, pin point accuracy with heavy weapon loads is the primary issue with the game. If you don't treat those two symptoms, nothing you do in game will matter.

[Jack Lazarus]

PanzerMagier, on 13 June 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

So according to your "math"
small lasers are the best weapons in the game?
Wow, genius, you forgot range in your silly statistics...

It looks to me like his chart is sorted by range from left to right, with breaks for the two types of missiles.

[Livewyr]

This is one of those
I told you so moments from back during the PPC heat crying.

PGI needs to put real heat penalties in..otherwise Heat increase will only half-fix the issue.
-------------

People keep saying convergence is the problem (personally, i think it's necessary when dealing with extremely dynamic and ranging battlefield.)

I'd say put those heat penalties up there... Still offers the deadly use of Aim.. but creates some serious risk with alpha striking many heavy weapons.

(AC20 jagers will always be irritating, but at least they carry risk with them.. and Gauss boats even more so)

[Purlana]

Jack Lazarus, on 13 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

It looks to me like his chart is sorted by range from left to right, with breaks for the two types of missiles.

According to the chart small, medium and SMRs have the highest value for DMG over time. But DMG over time is not everything.., .