33 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

What needs to be updated for Heat Damage to the CT is DHS 1.6 or 1.7. Example of looming problems:

New player spend 12.8 million CBills or Cash$ on the Awesome AWS-9M. They take it out in it's stock loadout and fire 3xERPPCs. On the fourth shot it shutsdown and restarts with center torso heat damage. They grumble and play on, but now every second or third shot the mech shutsdown and takes center torso heat damage. Pretty soon the mech has killed itself without taking a single hit, even though it is using the Dev and Battletech designed stock loadout. This will not make this player happy and they will leave or stay, but certainly they will come to the conclusion that MWO is poorly designed, and of course it's not.

So, now that a heat damage cap is being added players need better working external DHS so they can moderate the over-heating in combat.

Like in the above example, the player should be able to fire 4 salvos without overheating and then have the mech cool to near zero heat within 10 seconds or so. 3xERPPC's are supposed to be reasonably functional with DHS. What DHS 1.4 produces is 3xERPPC capping heat in 3 salvos and requiring 15-20 seconds to zero the heat (21 DHS 1.4). That is a broken mech and it's stock, not player designed.

When DHS 1.4 was added it was always with the idea that it could be looked at again as MWO's heat mechanics were fleshed out. Now that they are, that time to re-look at DHS 1.4 has come.

EDIT:

Some folks have questioned whether a mech with 3xERPPCs and 21 DHS shuts down on the third salvo. It does, even on River City, a moderate heat map. Here is what happens, moving in water (2% heat).

Salvo 2 puts you at 80-85% heat, you cool to 78% heat waiting for the recharge, firing the third time puts you in shutdown for 5 seconds, you restart at 90% heat roughly and firing again puts you in shutdown for 7-8 seconds. Cooling to zero heat from restart takes about 20-22 seconds, about 27 seconds from max heat in shutdown to zero heat. So this Battletech stock mech doesn't work. That's not a combat functional mech.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 June 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[Dracol]

First would like to point out engine dhs do 2.0.

Second, I agree it will be frustrating for new players if they are not informed about the consequences of over heating.

Third, I do not agree that dhs rate needs to be increased. With effencies they are very effective. Also, a major aspect of mechwarrior IMHO is the attack and fade mechanic that dealing with heat entails. Remove having to manage heat and the game will just be run to the center and hold down the trigger.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 13 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

What needs to be updated for Heat Damage to the CT is DHS 1.6 or 1.7. Example of looming problems: New player spend 12.8 million CBills or Cash$ on the Awesome AWS-9M. They take it out in it's stock loadout and fire 3xERPPCs. On the fourth shot it shutsdown and restarts with center torso heat damage. They grumble and play on, but now every second or third shot the mech shutsdown and takes center torso heat damage. Pretty soon the mech has killed itself without taking a single hit, even though it is using the Dev and Battletech designed stock loadout. This will not make this player happy and they will leave or stay, but certainly they will come to the conclusion that MWO is poorly designed, and of course it's not. So, now that a heat damage cap is being added players need better working external DHS so they can moderate the over-heating in combat. Like in the above example, the player should be able to fire 4 salvos without overheating and then have the mech cool to near zero heat within 10 seconds or so. 3xERPPC's are supposed to be reasonably functional with DHS. What DHS 1.4 produces is 3xERPPC capping heat in 3 salvos and requiring 15-20 seconds to zero the heat (21 DHS 1.4). That is a broken mech and it's stock, not player designed. When DHS 1.4 was added it was always with the idea that it could be looked at again as MWO's heat mechanics were fleshed out. Now that they are, that time to re-look at DHS 1.4 has come.

Increasing heat tolerance in MWO had produced all this energy boating in the first place. Making DHS even better will undo everything PGI had done so far to curb such builds.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 June 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Livewyr]

Someone is actually saying 150% heat penalty is too restrictive?

Am I reading this right?

[VonRunnegen]

lol 150% heat is HUGE.

Also changing DHS won't fix the game, it'll just cause people to take less heat sinks and more other stuff.

Edit: Also it'll shut down v. briefly on third volley, 4th volley will not put it over 150% (91.2 heats, 96 is cutoff)
Indeed at stock config if it could fire all 3 ERPPCs at *exactly* 100% heat it'd only *just* break the 150% barrier (97 heat vs the 96 limit)

Edited by VonRunnegen, 13 June 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Increasing heat tolerance in MWO had produced all this energy boating in the first place. Making DHS even better will undo everything PGI had done so far to curb such builds.

But he is talking about a Canon Build that actually sucks pretty bad as is. On TT The 9M can fire 5-7 times before heat is a threat. I fired this Mech twice and shut down. I understand his pain.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 June 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

But he is talking about a Canon Build that actually sucks pretty bad as is. On TT The 9M can fire 5-7 times before heat is a threat. I fired this Mech twice and shut down. I understand his pain.

There is no way 3 ERPPCs will shut down a mech with 20 DHS after only 2 Alphas.

With great energy weapon, comes great heat. Maybe he should have gotten 8T or 8R instead.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 June 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[Fut]

Lightfoot, on 13 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

New player spend 12.8 million CBills or Cash$ on the Awesome AWS-9M. They take it out in it's stock loadout and fire 3xERPPCs. On the fourth shot it shutsdown and restarts with center torso heat damage. They grumble and play on, but now every second or third shot the mech shutsdown and takes center torso heat damage. Pretty soon the mech has killed itself without taking a single hit, even though it is using the Dev and Battletech designed stock loadout. This will not make this player happy and they will leave or stay, but certainly they will come to the conclusion that MWO is poorly designed, and of course it's not.

A sane person would stop firing all of their PPCs at the same time once they see that it's causing damage to themselves.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

There is no way 3 ERPPCs will shut down a mech with 20 DHS after only 2 Alphas.

With great energy weapon, comes great heat. Maybe he should have gotten 8T or 8R instead.

On TT no. In Closed Beta it did. It's when I started to believe the heat system was Fdup. 2 volleys and down I went.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 June 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

On TT no. In Closed Beta it did. It's when I started to believe the heat system was Fdup. 2 volleys and down I went.

Let's stick to the present, shall we? This is not Closed Beta.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Let's stick to the present, shall we? This is not Closed Beta.

Is that going to be the new, "This isn't TT."

[Livewyr]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Is that going to be the new, "This isn't TT."

It's going to constantly remind me of happier times.
(Specifically Pre-August CBT)

[One Medic Army]

To go from under 100% to 150% or more all at once you'd need to be generating more than half of your heat scale at once, or in other words you have too much gun and not enough sink, you're in a stupid build and deserve whatever happens.

[Ningyo]

Heat figures for weapons are based around firing once every 10 seconds if you compare with a 10 second TT round length. They just allow you to fire more often in MWO, but still retain the heat dissipation rate which slows you don long term. If you took that awesome and fired its 3 ERPPCs only every 10 seconds it could fire about as long as in TT.

[Lightfoot]

Dracol, on 13 June 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

First would like to point out engine dhs do 2.0.

Second, I agree it will be frustrating for new players if they are not informed about the consequences of over heating.

Third, I do not agree that dhs rate needs to be increased. With effencies they are very effective. Also, a major aspect of mechwarrior IMHO is the attack and fade mechanic that dealing with heat entails. Remove having to manage heat and the game will just be run to the center and hold down the trigger.

If DHS 1.4 is working fine then make the Engine Heatsinks the same rate. Find the value that all DHS should be because making only Engine DHS the 2.0 value is PURE CHEESE . It invalidates MechWarrior by favoring Ballistics so heavily. Seriously, get rid of the Engine DHS Cheese and make all DHS the same value, then find out what cooling value is fair and balanced.

The reason is that if you want cooling you should have to pay tonnage for it, not get it gratis because you run ballistics and a few medium lasers.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 June 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Ningyo, on 13 June 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Heat figures for weapons are based around firing once every 10 seconds if you compare with a 10 second TT round length. They just allow you to fire more often in MWO, but still retain the heat dissipation rate which slows you don long term. If you took that awesome and fired its 3 ERPPCs only every 10 seconds it could fire about as long as in TT.

This comparison is made irrelavant because Ballistics and Missiles fire at 2 to 3 times TT value and never overheat. Only Energy weapons overheat in MWO and you know that's not MechWarrior. In MechWarrior all the weapons overheat except Machine Guns and Gauss Rifles. Running 2x AC20 should be a scorcher even with 14 DHS firing every 6-8 seconds.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 June 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[Lightfoot]

I don't know. We are getting a heat cap that damages mechs in the CT. That should be enough to stop energy boating. So how are you going to allow players to use Energy weapons safely now? Are you really that paranoid of mechs with Energy loadouts? So it's okay to fire boated ballistics dakka-dakka all match long, but you draw the line at energy weapons?

MechWarrior has three balanced weapon groups that are all just as deadly. Ballistics are heavy, but cool. Energy is light but hot. You balance the two together, but if you can't carry Ballistics you carry extra Cooling which adds the weight that Energy saves over Ballistics.

Maybe you need to get over the terror of the 6xPPC Stalkers, but DHS 1.4 favors ballistics very heavily.

[ExtremeA79]

The AWS 8Q is pretty much the only mech here that is SUPPOSED to boat PPC's.
That is why I like hardpoint sizes.

[Nikijih]

Lightfoot, on 13 June 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

This comparison is made irrelavant because Ballistics and Missiles fire at 2 to 3 times TT value and never overheat. Only Energy weapons overheat in MWO and you know that's not MechWarrior. In MechWarrior all the weapons overheat except Machine Guns and Gauss Rifles. Running 2x AC20 should be a scorcher even with 14 DHS firing every 6-8 seconds.

Em. No. Just no. You are so full of crap it smells all the way here...
1) Yes, missiles and ballistics do overheat. My fastest heat builder mech is my AC2 jagger boat, and my LRM stalker needs a ton of heatsinks to keep firing.
2) Energy weapons always built WAY more heat than either missiles and ballistics, even in Canon.

Pull your head out of your *** and quit that "the grass is always greener on the other side" attitude, will ya? Its not constructive and its not productive. If you are going to try being a drama queen over things that "are not MechWarrior!", then i'd like to point out that in Canon, lasering crystals do burn out sometimes under high stress/temperatures, leaving the weapon inoperable. Just be happy you dont have to deal with that in MWO.

Quote

New player spend 12.8 million CBills or Cash$ on the Awesome AWS-9M. They take it out in it's stock loadout and fire 3xERPPCs. On the fourth shot it shutsdown and restarts with center torso heat damage. They grumble and play on, but now every second or third shot the mech shutsdown and takes center torso heat damage. Pretty soon the mech has killed itself without taking a single hit, even though it is using the Dev and Battletech designed stock loadout. This will not make this player happy and they will leave or stay, but certainly they will come to the conclusion that MWO is poorly designed, and of course it's not.

This is you blaming the game for your shortcomings as a gamer. You are trying to convince us that a new player should not have to learn to manage his heat because that is inconvenient and confusing to someone who knows nothing about the heat mechanis. To this I reply: welcome to video games mate, where games have mechanics you have to learn in order to perform well.

Edited by Nikijih, 13 June 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Nikijih, on 13 June 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Em. No. Just no. You are so full of crap it smells all the way here...
1) Yes, missiles and ballistics do overheat. My fastest heat builder mech is my AC2 jagger boat, and my LRM stalker needs a ton of heatsinks to keep firing.
2) Energy weapons always built WAY more heat than either missiles and ballistics, even in Canon.

Pull your head out of your *** and quit that "the grass is always greener on the other side" attitude, will ya? Its not constructive and its not productive. If you are going to try being a drama queen over things that "are not MechWarrior!", then i'd like to point out that in Canon, lasering crystals do burn out sometimes under high stress/temperatures, leaving the weapon inoperable. Just be happy you dont have to deal with that in MWO.


This is you blaming the game for your shortcomings as a gamer. You are trying to convince us that a new player should not have to learn to manage his heat because that is inconvenient and confusing to someone who knows nothing about the heat mechanis. To this I reply: welcome to video games mate, where games have mechanics you have to learn in order to perform well.

Excuses, excuses. No need to resort to insults by the way.