33 replies to this topic

[Nikijih]

Lightfoot, on 13 June 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Excuses, excuses. No need to resort to insults by the way.

Are you trolling?

[Clit Beastwood]

The problem doesn't sound like anything perhaps a tutorial video or written instructions couldn't address. I'd really like to see "testing grounds" expanded to "training grounds", wherein there are AI controlled enemies and you progress from "shoot stationary mech" to "shoot moving mech", you go through different environments in different mechs to a) get a feel for different mechs/weapon systems, and learn to manage heat.

[Lightfoot]

Well, I am not certain what the solution is. Perhaps it is just the cooling rate of heatsinks is too slow. Maybe you want to keep the heat max threshold where it is.

And, I am not trying to expert a solution, just saying 3xERPPCs and some other large energy loadouts are normal and functional in Battletech and Battletech is where these mechs are coming from so there is a valid tie-in even if everything is not perfect TT. So if you are going to abandon the concept of Double Heatsinks you probably better give all mechs Ballistic hardpoints even if they don't have them in Battletech.

I'd like everything to adhere to Battletech as much as possible, I think you will end up with a more balanced product, but MWO doesn't have to and a video game version probably can't match everything completely. So I am not a TT purist, but I do expect the three weapon types to end up being balanced. For Energy weapons to reach that point, it seems like expecting 3xERPPC to work in the MWO combat enviornment is a very modest goal for MWO to reach.

[Nikijih]

Lightfoot, on 13 June 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Well, I am not certain what the solution is. Perhaps it is just the cooling rate of heatsinks is too slow. Maybe you want to keep the heat max threshold where it is.

And, I am not trying to expert a solution, just saying 3xERPPCs and some other large energy loadouts are normal and functional in Battletech and Battletech is where these mechs are coming from so there is a valid tie-in even if everything is not perfect TT. So if you are going to abandon the concept of Double Heatsinks you probably better give all mechs Ballistic hardpoints even if they don't have them in Battletech.

I'd like everything to adhere to Battletech as much as possible, I think you will end up with a more balanced product, but MWO doesn't have to and a video game version probably can't match everything completely. So I am not a TT purist, but I do expect the three weapon types to end up being balanced. For Energy weapons to reach that point, it seems like expecting 3xERPPC to work in the MWO combat enviornment is a very modest goal for MWO to reach.

Those numbers are functional in Btech because Btech is a turn based game. This is a FPS. This is a recurring problem with you TT fans: you dont seem able to take a step back and realize that a video game works completely and utterly differently. You cannot completely change the pace of the gameplay without adapting to the new genre.

What you are asking for is essentially the ability to boat 3 ERPPCs (highest heat generation weapon in game) without having to manage your heat actively (rotating fire, not spamming it, etc) and without having to equip any heat sink over a stock loadouts. Sorry to break your bubble mate, but thats neither modest nor even reasonable. You are completely ignoring the context, that of a FPS PC game, and attempting to argue your points based on TT mechanics and logics. You are wrong.

You would completely destroy game balance in the name of your nostalgia, and thats just neither productive nor constructive. All you would accomplish is either make heat a non-factor, de facto removing the entire mechanic from the game, or force PGI to put weapons on 10 seconds + cooldowns, making MWO boring as hell as a FPS.

Get with the program people: this is NOT a TT game.

Edited by Nikijih, 14 June 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

I don't go up this high, and I don't boat anything in large enough numbers to suffer from it. The awesome PPCboat was always terrible, and never worked to begin with.

It's a bad example to bring up.

[Vodrin Thales]

Lightfoot, on 13 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

What needs to be updated for Heat Damage to the CT is DHS 1.6 or 1.7. Example of looming problems:

New player spend 12.8 million CBills or Cash$ on the Awesome AWS-9M. They take it out in it's stock loadout and fire 3xERPPCs. On the fourth shot it shutsdown and restarts with center torso heat damage. They grumble and play on, but now every second or third shot the mech shutsdown and takes center torso heat damage. Pretty soon the mech has killed itself without taking a single hit, even though it is using the Dev and Battletech designed stock loadout. This will not make this player happy and they will leave or stay, but certainly they will come to the conclusion that MWO is poorly designed, and of course it's not.

I'm sorry to echo what several others here are saying, but there is nothing that makes you alpha until you shut down with the 9M, and there are more efficient builds if that is what you desire. The only thing I will say is that a tutorial that explains to new players the dangers of overheating would be helpful. Otherwise it really is a "learn to manage your heat with better play" thing.

[scJazz]

Lightfoot, on 13 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

What needs to be updated for Heat Damage to the CT is DHS 1.6 or 1.7. Example of looming problems:

New player spend 12.8 million CBills or Cash$ on the Awesome AWS-9M. They take it out in it's stock loadout and fire 3xERPPCs. On the fourth shot it shutsdown and restarts with center torso heat damage. They grumble and play on, but now every second or third shot the mech shutsdown and takes center torso heat damage. Pretty soon the mech has killed itself without taking a single hit, even though it is using the Dev and Battletech designed stock loadout. This will not make this player happy and they will leave or stay, but certainly they will come to the conclusion that MWO is poorly designed, and of course it's not.

DISCLAIMER: TT, MechWarrior Titles, and MWO are mentioned in this post. It is not an apples to apples comparison. More like Apple Tree (TT) and Apples (MWO). The passage involved demonstrates just how greatly the one mechanism that kept us from boating 8 PPCs nevermind 6 was completely castrated in MWO. It is mentioned so that we can get some perspective.

Umm... wow... just... wow

I'm not even certain how to begin... I did have to walk away from the keyboard in order to just not entirely flame you with a napalm bomb. But now I'm back and honestly that urge is rapidly building again.

In Mechwarrior Version (Whatever) it has always been the case that Overheating = Bad
In TT Overheating was so much worse than bad it makes whatever Bad occurred in MechWarrior FPS titles seem like being smacked in the face by a feather. Allow me to illustrate...

NOTE: I'm doing this from memory so if I screw it up don't shoot me OK. Don't feel like going downstairs to actually get the Rulebooks.
41.7% chance of ammo explosion
-5 Movement points anything in this game moving slower than 81kph had its speed set to ZERO
+4 penalty on To Hit rolls... your average target at short range would end up only being hit around 15% of the time (4 Gunnery, +2 Target move 4-6, +4 Heat penalty) assuming you were not moving and at short range
If your mech shutdown you would have to roll Pilot Skill Roll checks to see if it fell over and took damage from the fall
If it fell over you'd have to make another check to see if your Pilot took damage and passed out
If the ammo did explode your pilot would take damage and again would have had to check for KO

You overheat even one time in TT and it is basically even odds whether or not that mech ever functions again, assuming it didn't die from an ammo explosion. Maybe not even odds maybe 1 in 3 chance.

OK fast forward to MWO... your post basically sums up as OMG some poor new guy overheats his mech 3 or 4 times to the point of shutdown and he might kill himself!?!?!???!!!!!!!!!!!oneoneelevenone

Seriously dude... you have been playing MWO too long if you think smacking the shutdown override or powering back up again while hot a half dozen times during the game is acceptable BattleTech. No joke! I mean when I started 6 weeks ago and accidentally overheated myself I almost died of fright. Moments later I was back up and running and I did it again! and again and again!

Then I went and read the rules concerning heat in MWO and nearly fainted. PGI had rewritten the one thing that kept us all from sticking 10 Medium Lasers and 8 PPCs on our mechs. Castrated the one mechanism that kept us from doing this thing. Worse yet they had INTENTIONALLY made the situation worse by increasing the Heat Threshold! WTF!?!?!!!!!!!!!!

So yeah... newb fires off 4 or 5 salvos of Awesome 9M PPC fire and cores himself... I'm OK with that actually.

[Lightfoot]

Well I am not okay with it. I don't mind that they added a hard heat cap. If you scan my posts last week and 3 weeks before you will see me saying that they could stop Energy boating by adding a hard heat cap that kills the mech if it overheats. So great, they did. But now that they have the hard heat cap, it follows that stock energy mechs should start to work also since we are all saved from da big bad energy boats that sent everyone into a tizzy for the past 4-5 weeks.

I am not a Battletech purist, but that is where these mechs are coming from so they should at least function or stop using Battletech as mech source material. So the AWS-9M is a mech that should work as well as any other mech in MWO and it doesn't. It shutsdown in combat too often for too long.

Also, compared to previous MechWarrior games MWO's utilization of large energy weapons is so timid it's not even in the same league. Probably this was needed because there was no hard heat cap, but now there is so the flaws with energy weapons should be looked at again also. It's either that or nerf the recharges on all the weapons so they conform with the restraints placed on energy weapons by their rapid overheating.

I mean you are all siting Battletech TT yourselves when you say these energy weapons only fired once every 10 seconds. By your own logic you are asking for all large weapons to fire once every 10 seconds. Which I am ok with, but the Dev's want a faster paced game. Well that's fine with me also if the energy weapons get included in the firing 2-3 times every 10 seconds, within reason of course. Energy always overheats eventually, but there is no reason 3xERPPC should shutdown a Mech with 21 double heatsinks on the third salvo. Flame away, but that's just non-working design. It should be fixed.

Edited by Lightfoot, 14 June 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[Mercules]

Lightfoot, on 14 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Energy always overheats eventually, but there is no reason 3xERPPC should shutdown a Mech with 21 double heatsinks on the third salvo. Flame away, but that's just bad design.

Except you are firing 2.5 times as fast as the mech was designed to fire according to TT. So yeah, a mech designed to dissipate heat at a rate equal to a normal firing scheme should overheat after three salvos from rapid fire. Even in TT firing three PPCs from that mech every turn is a "Bad Idea". In a couple turns you have seriously harmed your chances of maneuvering and returning fire making you that much less of a threat. 6-7 heat buildup every turn means in two turns you are slow and have a harder time hitting people.

By three you are overriding shutdowns. Sound familiar? I think it works and I am a die hard TT fan.

[Lightfoot]

Mercules, on 14 June 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Except you are firing 2.5 times as fast as the mech was designed to fire according to TT. So yeah, a mech designed to dissipate heat at a rate equal to a normal firing scheme should overheat after three salvos from rapid fire. Even in TT firing three PPCs from that mech every turn is a "Bad Idea". In a couple turns you have seriously harmed your chances of maneuvering and returning fire making you that much less of a threat. 6-7 heat buildup every turn means in two turns you are slow and have a harder time hitting people.

By three you are overriding shutdowns. Sound familiar? I think it works and I am a die hard TT fan.

That's how MWO has the recharge rate set. It's 2-3 times faster than Battletech TT, but only Energy weapons are being held to their Battletech recharge value by the rapid overheat.

The balance you are sighting would have all large weapons recharge every 10 seconds. If you want Energy weapons to follow TT recharge ratings then you have to have all weapons follow it. Meaning, there is no overheat restriction on any ballistic weapon except maybe AC2's after firing 4 20xtimes. Ballistic boats fire as fast as they recharge in MWO (2 to 3 times faster than TT) and never stop if you bring reasonable ammo. Why is that balanced, but energy weapons need to cool down for 20 seconds after less than 10 seconds of firing?

I expect energy weapons to overheat, but they are being held to a standard that missiles and ballistics are not held too. Maybe the engine heatsinks and non-engine heatsinks need to set to the same value for a recharge vs firing rate balance to be enabled. If that's what you want? You want Battletech heat scales over time? Or do you just want them for Energy weapons?

[One Medic Army]

Lightfoot, on 14 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

That's how MWO has the recharge rate set. It's 2-3 times faster than Battletech TT, but only Energy weapons are being held to their Battletech recharge value by the rapid overheat.

The balance you are sighting would have all large weapons recharge every 10 seconds. If you want Energy weapons to follow TT recharge ratings then you have to have all weapons follow it. Meaning, there is no overheat restriction on any ballistic weapon except maybe AC2's after firing 4 20xtimes. Ballistic boats fire as fast as they recharge in MWO (2 to 3 times faster than TT) and never stop if you bring reasonable ammo. Why is that balanced, but energy weapons need to cool down for 20 seconds after less than 10 seconds of firing?

I expect energy weapons to overheat, but they are being held to a standard that missiles and ballistics are not held too. Maybe the engine heatsinks and non-engine heatsinks need to set to the same value for a recharge vs firing rate balance to be enabled. If that's what you want? You want Battletech heat scales over time? Or do you just want them for Energy weapons?

To be fair, DHS give much more advantage to energy weapons.
An AC/10 is 12tons +2ton ammo vs PPC 7tons+7tons HS.
With DHS an AC/10 is still 10tons+2t ammo, but the PPC is now 7tons+3.5tons heatsinks.
The level-2 tech DHS gives a big advantage to all energy weapons, our level-2 ballistic tech is more hit/miss. Gauss are good, so they got nerfed with the easy explosions, LBX is crap since critting is irrelevant and it doesn't have slug rounds, no ammo types at all, UAC/5 has been tweaked to not obsolete the AC/5.

[Mercules]

Lightfoot, on 14 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

That's how MWO has the recharge rate set. It's 2-3 times faster than Battletech TT, but only Energy weapons are being held to their Battletech recharge value by the rapid overheat.

The balance you are sighting would have all large weapons recharge every 10 seconds. If you want Energy weapons to follow TT recharge ratings then you have to have all weapons follow it. Meaning, there is no overheat restriction on any ballistic weapon except maybe AC2's after firing 4 20xtimes. Ballistic boats fire as fast as they recharge in MWO (2 to 3 times faster than TT) and never stop if you bring reasonable ammo. Why is that balanced, but energy weapons need to cool down for 20 seconds after less than 10 seconds of firing?

I expect energy weapons to overheat, but they are being held to a standard that missiles and ballistics are not held too. Maybe the engine heatsinks and non-engine heatsinks need to set to the same value for a recharge vs firing rate balance to be enabled. If that's what you want? You want Battletech heat scales over time? Or do you just want them for Energy weapons?

The thing you are clearly missing about Energy Weapons is that they do not run out of ammo, nor do they explode suddenly on you. Yes, ballistic weapons do not generate much heat but they weigh a ton, need ammo, and sadly, they need more ammo than Energy weapons need heatsinks.

7 tons for a PPC which does 10 damage and generates 8 heat at a better range than an AC/10 which in turn weighs 12 tons and generates 3 heat. AC/10 needs at least 2 tons of ammo bring that up to 14 tons for an AC 10. PPC + 7 DHS. Lets assume those are all outside the Engine so 9.8 cooling every 10 seconds. AC/10 fires 3 times and goes up 9 heat with no dissipation(ignoring engine HS for this purpose) while the PPC fires 3 times and goes up 14.2. Difference is 5 heat for something that can fire over and over without running out of shots and doesn't run a risk of exploding. I think that is fair.


The problem is that people are thinking, "For the weight of 2 AC/10s I can take 3 PPCs or two ERPPCs and some extra heat sinks." and ignoring that a PPCs "ammo" is heat. Energy weapons, even in the table top, were great for longevity and hit and run engagements. Ballistics have always been better for heavy continuous brawls, even in TT.

You aren't bringing enough "ammo" for your energy weapons but state ballistics can fire forever if they bring "reasonable" ammo. I need a definition of "reasonable" because I know I have run out of ammo and I consider that a "reasonable" amount to bring. I've also overheated in strictly ballistic mechs because I can't bring enough DHS with the huge critical slots and weight that Ballistics take up.

Again, it seems balanced... but only if you stop thinking about it strictly from a "I can fire this weapon X times and this weapon Y times before shutting down." Yeah, in a vacuum ignoring all other factors that seems unbalanced. Stop ignoring all those other factors.

[Lightfoot]

Look, I am just saying a mech that fires it's ERPPCs 9 times before overheating in Battletech should be able to function in MWO with 21 DHS. What is so shocking about that? MWO has shuffled the deck by increasing weapon recharge by at least double, consequently, energy weapons are overheating too rapidly. The weapons are using the same damage tables as in Battletech so balance is maintained by making heat dissapation work faster. I suppose the heat cap is correct, but the heat dissapation is too slow.

In a few months Clan mechs arrive. Guess what? They can all carry 30-36 DHS if they need too. They will run cool and the IS mechs will not. Do you want the Clan mechs to have that much of an advantage?



@ Mercules

My ammo using mechs never run out of ammo. Your ammo only has to last 7 minutes usually and destroy 5 mechs, so if you can destroy all 8 mechs on Testing Grounds you should not ever run out of ammo in a match. So there is nothing capping the firing rate of Ballistics or Missiles. Use CASE to prevent ammo explosions damage, heatsinks get destroyed just like ammo.

Edited by Lightfoot, 14 June 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[The Strange]

You're upset that you can't alpha all your PPcs over and over and over? Falling on deaf ears bro.