13 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Has anyone done any testing with the heat scale with the new training ground?

Edited (not 50 base). 30 base scale + the number of heat sinks, both internal and external on top of that.

Many understand that pin point accuracy is one of the main issues with MWO weapons but on top of that is the heat scale and how PGI allows the heat scale cap to be increased by additional HS.

*****************
Single Heat sink 10 only in standard 260 Engine
4 PPC (8 heat each) 32 heat

Spoiler

Caustic- Hot 7% heat standing / 12% running (in pit 20% standing / 24% running)
Cadeau
4 PPC / 24% running / Fired 100% shutdown/ Just enough to start moving but if it cooled any it was after I was tired waiting
4 PPC / 20% standing / Fired 99.99% (80% + 20%) / Cool down 158 secs (2 minutes 38 secs)

4 PPC / 12% running / Fired 92% (80% + 12%) / Cool down 63 secs
4 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 87% (80% + 7%) / Cool down 45 secs
3 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 67% (60% + 7%) / Cool down 34 secs
2 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 47% (40% + 7%) / Cool down 23 secs
1 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 27% (27% + 7%) / Cool down 12 secs

Toulmine - Hot 7% heat standing / 12% running
4 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 87% (80% + 7%) / Cool down 45 secs
3 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 67% (60% + 7%) / Cool down 34 secs
2 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 47% (40% + 7%) / Cool down 23 secs
1 PPC / 7% standing / Fired 27% (27% + 7%) / Cool down 12 secs

Forest Colony- Standard 0% heat standing/running 4%
4 PPC / 4% running / Fired 84% (80% + 4%) / Cool down 38 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 79% / Cool down 32 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 59% / Cool down 24 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 39% / Cool down 16 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 19% / Cool down 8 secs

Canyon/River City - Standard 0% heat standing/running 4%
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 79% / Cool down 32 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 59% / Cool down 24 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 39% / Cool down 16 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 19% / Cool down 8 secs

Alpine City - Cold 0% heat standing & running
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 67% / Cool down 18 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 47% / Cool down 12 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 27% / Cool down 7.5 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 7% / Cool down 2.5 secs

Frozen City - Cold 0% heat standing & running
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 67% / Cool down 18 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 47% / Cool down 12 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 27% / Cool down 7.5 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 7% / Cool down 2.5 secs

*************************************
Double Heat sink 10 only in standard 260 Engine
4 PPC (8 heat each) 32 heat

Spoiler

Forest Colony- Standard 0% heat standing/running 3.5%
4 PPC / 3.5% running / Fired 67% / Cool down 18 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 63% / Cool down 16 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 45% / Cool down 12 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 31% / Cool down 8 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 15% / Cool down 4 secs

River City (Night) - Standard 0% heat standing/running 3%
4 PPC / 3% running / Fired 67% / Cool down 18 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 63% / Cool down 16 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 45% / Cool down 12 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 31% / Cool down 8 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 15% / Cool down 4 secs

Forest Colony (Snow)- Standard 0% heat standing/running 1%
4 PPC / 1% running / Fired 64% / Cool down 16 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 61% / Cool down 15 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 45% / Cool down 11 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 29% / Cool down 7 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 13% / Cool down 3 secs

Frozen City - Cold 0% heat standing & running
4 PPC / 0% running / Fired 57% / Cool down 13 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 53% / Cool down 11 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 37% / Cool down 7.5 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 21% / Cool down 4 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 5% / Cool down 1 sec

*******************************************************
Forest Colony (20 total DHS)- Standard 0% heat standing/running 3%
4 PPC / 3% running / Fired 52% / Cool down 10 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 48% / Cool down 9 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 36% / Cool down 7 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 24% / Cool down 5 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 12% / Cool down 2.5 secs

Frozen City (20 total DHS) - Cold 0% heat standing & running
4 PPC / 0% running / Fired 44% / Cool down 8 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 42% / Cool down 7 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 28% / Cool down 5 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 16% / Cool down 3 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 4% / Cool down >1 sec

*************************************

Both Forest Colony, SHS and DHS 10 only in 260 standard engine The percentages is approximate with margin of error.

10 SHS - Forest Colony- Standard 0% heat standing/running 4%
4 PPC / 4% running / Fired 84% (79.xx% + 4%) / Cool down 38 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 79% / Cool down 32 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 59% / Cool down 24 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 39% / Cool down 16 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 19% / Cool down 8 secs

10 DHS - Forest Colony- Standard 0% heat standing/running 3.5%
4 PPC / 3.5% running / Fired 67% / Cool down 18 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 63% / Cool down 16 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 45% / Cool down 12 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 31% / Cool down 8 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 15% / Cool down 4 secs

Forest Colony (20 total DHS - 10 in engine, 10 external) used 325 XL- Standard 0% heat standing/running 3%
4 PPC / 3% running / Fired 52% / Cool down 10 secs
4 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 48% / Cool down 9 secs
3 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 36% / Cool down 7 secs
2 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 24% / Cool down 5 secs
1 PPC / 0% standing / Fired 12% / Cool down 2.5 secs

Edited

As expected, cool down for the DHS is 2x faster than SHS with the internal 10 heat sinks, as expected. If you take the SHS, it would appear the 100% heat scale is set at 40. The DHS heat scale appears to be set at around 50pts (base 30+ 20 more points).

Take 10 additional SHS would be at the 50pts mark while 10 additional DHS would be at 64pts mark (30pts base + 20pts additional internal DHS + 14pts from 10 external DHS).

So if PGI were to set the Heat scale at 30pts with NO increase in the cap, we would be looking at a higher scale the 10 SHS HS percentage after a mech fired 4 PPCs, as it would shut down as it would be at 32 heat.

Discuss why PGI does not wish to touch the Heat Scale, even if it was to remove the Cap extension?

edited for corrections, spoiler tags added to post landscape

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 June 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[Jonneh]

I'm afraid that the testing ground is pretty bugged, and unreliable as a platform for testing

[One Medic Army]

The heat scale is supposedly set to 30+heatsinks.
If you have 10 SHS it's set at 40 (30+10)
If you have 10 DHS (in-engine) it's set to 50 (30+2*10)
If you have 15 DHS (10 in-engine) it's set to 57(30+2*10+5*1.4)

[Sable Dove]

Uh... PPCs are only 8 heat. ERPPCs are 11. There is no weapon with 10 heat.

Heat capacity is 30 + x, where x is the value added by the heatsinks
SHS is (1.0*number of sinks)
DHS is (2.0*internal sinks + 1.4*external sinks)

Assuming all 10 are in the engine, SHS mechs have a capacity of 40, and DHS a capacity of 50.
Every external sink increases that by 1.0/1.4 (for SHS/DHS)

Dissipation is the same, but divided by 10. SHS dissipate 0.10 heat per second, and DHS dissipate 0.20/0.14 heat per second.

Also, since mech efficiencies don't apply in Training Grounds, most players will be used to having a heat cap 10-20% higher, and 7.5-15% higher dissipation.

This also does not count heat retention, which causes mechs to cool more slowly at higher heat (which is technically unrealistic, but it's probably the closest to a heat penalty we're going to get).

[Deathlike]

Technically, lowering the capacity shouldn't really affect anything outside of the amount of damage you can do before shutting down/overheating.

So, for most heat responsible mechs, including meds and lights, they are generally unaffected (this includes the already heat heavy Hunchback-4P). Mechs that are in the "super hot" category aka the 6 PPC Stalker would get into 90% heat capacity territory as soon as it alphas. If it alphas again, it would immediately shutdown at ~150% or so (I'd have to do actual math, someone will probably share it).. these #s assumes removal of the heat cap bonuses from additional external HS.

[Tarl Cabot]

And that is what I get for not wearing my glasses, as well as being home sick (really, I am).

I will get things updated.

[Symbiodinium]

I would be very cautious about results from testing grounds, often it doesn't work the same as in-game. For example, at one point (and maybe they still do) lasers used in testing grounds began recycling while the beam was still burning, that is, they were recharging before they stopped firing, increasing the fire rate. Basically, try to confirm what you're seeing in-game before getting too excited.

[Deathlike]

6 PPCs generate 48 heat (6*8)

Base heat capacity for DHS mechs with a 250 engine = 50 (30+10*2)
Each DHS in the engine increases the heat capacity by 2.

Assuming that no heat capacity changes/increases... (it easily gets influenced by heat containment and additional DHS)

48/50 = 96% once you fire (remember this doesn't factor outside temps affecting DHS rates)

A 6 PPC mech can fit like 16 DHS on it.

The heat dissipation rate is..

(.2 heat dissipation rate for int DHS * 10 internal DHS) * (.14 heat dissipation rate for ext DHS * 6) = 2.84 heat points removed per second

PPC recharge rate is 4 seconds...

2.84 * 4 = 11.36 pts of heat removed til next alpha (this is prior to coolrun)

48 -11.36 = 36.64
36.64/50 = 73%

Firing again would immediately go over 150% (which is the currently proposed limit).

Unfortunately, when you fact in all of the current bonuses, the picture changes dramatically.

Note: I don't want to do the math, since I've done it other threads before.

Simply put, the current UNCHANGED system would still allow 6 PPCs to still fly under the 150% heat threshold. It does nothing to deter it. Remember that heat capacity increases by a max of 20% and heat dissipation increases by a max of 15%.

So... lowering the heat capacity (removing external DHS perhaps including internal DHS bonuses AND the heat containment efficiency) would certainly address the problem better than the proposed system that Paul is implementing.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 June 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

It is the only really control environment. Heat containment is only part of the equation, unfortunately. That a player, regardless of range can put damage of direct fire weapons 99% of the time is one of the other part of the equation. There has to be a solid foundation for it to all be built upon though or it ends up with spit and hangers holding it together.

[Sable Dove]

I would suggest a cap of 24, 20, since the efficiencies will push this to 24 anyways. allowing, at most, 2 (ER)PPCs to be fired simultaneously, and, depending on the map, maybe not even that.

I would also suggest doubling heat dissipation (0.20 for SHS, 0.40 for DHS), and making all internal heat sinks (including those added to engines with 275+ rating) dissipate at 0.40 heat per second (this is the big reason that SHS are useless, really, since in-engine DHS do not suffer from the drawback of taking up 3 slots, so they are a direct upgrade to SHS).

This way, most builds would play almost the same, but heavy energy-weapon boating, at least would be less viable. And as an added bonus, SHS would finally be viable(!).

Then it's just a matter of fixing poor mechanics in order to take care of the dual AC/20 and dual Gauss, and then fixing LRMs so that they're less overpowering when boated, and underwhelming when taken in small numbers.

Edited by Sable Dove, 13 June 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

As for the efficiencies.

With the same built, dropped into a live game in Frozen City.
4 PPC / 20 DHS / 32% standing / 6 sec cool down.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 June 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Sable Dove, on 13 June 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

I would suggest a cap of 24, 20, since the efficiencies will push this to 24 anyways. allowing, at most, 2 (ER)PPCs to be fired simultaneously, and, depending on the map, maybe not even that.

I would also suggest doubling heat dissipation (0.20 for SHS, 0.40 for DHS), and making all internal heat sinks (including those added to engines with 275+ rating) dissipate at 0.40 heat per second (this is the big reason that SHS are useless, really, since in-engine DHS do not suffer from the drawback of taking up 3 slots, so they are a direct upgrade to SHS).

This way, most builds would play almost the same, but heavy energy-weapon boating, at least would be less viable. And as an added bonus, SHS would finally be viable(!).

Then it's just a matter of fixing poor mechanics in order to take care of the dual AC/20 and dual Gauss, and then fixing LRMs so that they're less overpowering when boated, and underwhelming when taken in small numbers.

Actually sounds like something worth trying out, probably on the upcoming test server.

[Tarl Cabot]

One Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Actually sounds like something worth trying out, probably on the upcoming test server.

It would be, once the test server is out. This thread also hits at why double heat sinks can not be truly double heat sinks. It is necessarily the heat dispersion but heat cap differences.

4 PPC = 32 heat
4 ERPPC = 44 heat

SHS
20 SHS: 30 base + 20 all SHS = 50

DHS
20 DHS: 30 base + 40 all DHS = 70 (from current 64)

And most stock IS mechs run with 10 SHS, making their base at 30pts.

Or take another look at it if MWO was converted to Solaris terms (4x, a round was 2.5 secs or 1/4 TT round). Solaris rules are less forgiven on heat. This would be seen as the extreme end.

MWO Base 30pts (no heat sinks) = 120pts

10 SHS (40pt base) = 160pts
20 SHS (50pt base) = 200pts

10 DHS (50pt base) = 200pts
20 DHS (64pt base) = 256pts

4 PPC (8each - 32pts) = 128
4 ERPPC (11each - 44pts) = 176

[Tarl Cabot]

Even on the cap, if it is to be adjusted by the heat sinks it should be universal and not depend on the type of heat sink but only the number of heat sinks. That would make it so the only difference is the dispersion rate.

If done that way then the difference between a SHS awesome and a DHS awesome would be the dissipation rate when firing 4 PPCs. Easier to balance the game when there is only one viable on that point to play with.

My testing vehicle above was conducted with the Highlander 732P. The only way to fix a total of 20 DHS into it was running with a XL 325 engine to fit in last 3 DHS (10 auto in engine, 7 in body then 3 in engine's extra HS space). That is 7 IS DHS or 21 crit stops. With Clan DHS that would be only 14 crit spots for 7 Clan DHS.

PGI keeps saying that mechs are dying too fast and they will die even faster once 12vs12 goes live. Unfortunately there is not one thing that can keep mechs alive longer, it will need be a combination of several things.

1. Slow down the rate of alpha firing by having either a fixed heat cap on the heat scale or make it so cap increases/decrease at the same amount, regardless of heat sink type. With current implementation, is it a wonder PGI did not give DHS their full value, look at the mess it is in right now.

2. Slow down weapons convergence.

3. Cone of fire dependent on both heat built up and mech movement.

4. Heat scale penalties that would affect movement and aim.