459 replies to this topic

[ExtremeA79]

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

So give lights a pilot skill or chassis quirk to reduce it. There are ways to implement these ideas that won't kill the viability of strikers and such.

As for the second point, ever been hit by 3x PPC and a Gauss in a light? Best case scenario you lose an arm but usually it is instant death or a leg blown off. And current IS mechs have very limited targeting systems. The ranges of weapons are low in the lore not because the weapons are not effective at longer ranges but because it is really hard to hit anything at long range. Clans already have more sophisticated targeting computers that help calculate leads and compensate for movement and recoil but the IS doesn't develop similar equipment until 3062, 12 years down the road from when this game is set.

It is for a variety a reasons, not just because "they cannot hit anything."

So is this whole fix that OP wants is because you keep getting sniped in lights?
Lights have the ability to pick their fights, that is one of the advantages. If you keep getting sniped your using it wrong. Obviously the OP wants the game easier for lights.

[WolvesX]

Hmm.. . Its sucks to fail a perfectly aimed shot in WoT with the most accurate gun in the game.
so no.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Cool, so when I charge a stalker with a medium, I know he won't move as my reticle spreads my damage all over the mech.

Do you really not see how this completely bones any fast mech?

You don't make high alpha pinpoint a niche, you make it the only way to play the game ie, the exact same position we are in now.

Currently brawlers do nothing cause lasers /srms spread way to much to make up for the damage you take getting in range. Your system actually reinforces that.

I don' see it that way. I am more accurate hitting standing still than I am moving even in MWO. The difference isn't that much cause we don't simulate speed properly. Moving at 130KpH would need some fast reflexes to hit a moving target.

[3rdworld]

DaZur, on 14 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

"Arms" is a colloquial misnomer... Let's use: LT-SIDE WEAPON MOUNT | TORSO WEAPON MOUNT | RT-SIDE WEAPON MOUNT... Each mount has it's own aim-point that attempts to "harmonize" with the center reticle.

It's not necessarily about nerfing snipers or high-alpha... It's about mitigating their dominance in all scenarios / conditions through a moderate movement difficulty modifier.

and the pair of PPCs mounted to each arm of a stalker are located in the same point, and fire from the same port. so yes, you are doing nothing.

How does it mitigate their dominance? Now instead of damaging the sniper while closing, you get to spray and pray all over the place hoping to do anything before he blows your leg off.

[DocBach]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

And how does it do that? PPCs on stalkers shoot out of the same port from the arms. How exactly could you explain that they don't hit the same location other than "reasons"?

Nothing to do with countering sniping? Are you saying you are tired of people pin pointing damage with SRMs? cause i really doubt that is what you are saying.

No, they don't all fire from the same hole - on a five PPC Stalker there is five different ports firing, from at least three different locations, and model changes based on loadout is something all the 'Mechs will be getting, so each PPC will have a large, distinct firing port in the future. If each location had its own reference point on a reticule, the damage would still be spread out more than if it was all to one location like currently.



The idea is to make each location have a specified convergence point on a reticle that expands and contracts based on combat factors like movement speed, heat level, weapon range, ect to discourage massive boating of pinpoint alpha weapons.



simulated how left/right arm and left/right torso weapons would be spread by opening of convergence. Note how even though the reticle is over center of mass the convergence makes the torso lasers hit side torsos, spreading the damage out.

Edited by DocBach, 14 June 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[I am]

WolvesX, on 14 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Hmm.. . Its sucks to fail a perfectly aimed shot in WoT with the most accurate gun in the game.
so no.

See, here is one of those bhutt hurt WoT noobs now, posting his sausage fingers off trying to keep this from having anything to do with a game he's terrible at. What a toxic perspective.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I don' see it that way. I am more accurate hitting standing still than I am moving even in MWO. The difference isn't that much cause we don't simulate speed properly. Moving at 130KpH would need some fast reflexes to hit a moving target.

ya and right now in a fast mech, I can hit a moving target while moving. With this, nope.

[Kaldor]

Kaldor, on 14 June 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

How about they fix the underlying cause of all this first which is the heat system. Right now the heat system allows players to shutdown alpha fire large high damage, high heat weapons with no penalty. By fixing the heat system by decreasing heat cap, increasing dissipation, and adding in damage around 110% heat, you switch the game from an alpha strike meta, to a sustained DPS meta. If you force players to take more shots, they will miss more often and or spread the damage out more.

Personally, I hate the idea of a CoF system. I also really dislike the current metagame. The only way I would consider this to be a viable fix is if there were mech skills and or pilot modules that would decrease the effect of the CoF. Also, whether you want to admit it or not, this is a direct nerf on player skill and some styles of play other than sniping. Good pilots will find a way to get around it. Bad pilots will probably get worse. For both pilots, they may have a game winning shot lined up and the "Trollmode: Engage" from CoF comes into play and they miss what should have been a clean kill and it comes back to bite them in the a_s later. Light and medium pilots are forced to play at full throttle all the time. Should they have to slow down to take every shot? Sure, if they want to die a horrible death.

Lastly, does PGI have the dev time and money on hand to actually do this? I would prefer they actually fix the heat system into something solid that will last the life of the game, then turn their devs on to finishing CW, more maps, more game modes, more mechs, etc.

Since people just wont let go of this, and keep rambling on and on about a system that will doesnt fix the underlying problem, I thought I would quote myself.....

[Artgathan]

What if the CoF is replaced with a de-convergence system. This means that as you did things to make the mech more inaccurate (high heat, running, using jump jets) the different components of the mech (LA, RA, LT, RT) lose their convergence on a pinpoint location. However! Every location is still pinpoint accurate.

What I mean is that imagine your targeting reticule is actually made up of 5 dots stacked on top of eachother (CT, LT, RT, LA, RA). As you run these dots move apart (in a horizontal or otherwise predictable pattern). All the weapons in each location converge on the point they correspond to (IE: if there's 2 ML in my RA, they both hit the same place, but they won't hit the same place as the PPC in my LA). Using this players can still be pinpoint accurate, but they must rotate their mech to get all the weapons onto the same point (IE: I have to fire my RA first, twist to bring my LA aimpoint onto target and then fire my LA).

[3rdworld]

DocBach, on 14 June 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

No, they don't all fire from the same hole - on a five PPC Stalker there is five different ports firing, from at least three different locations, and model changes based on loadout is something all the 'Mechs will be getting, so each PPC will have a large, distinct firing port in the future.

The idea is to make each location have a specified convergence point on a reticle that expands and contracts based on combat factors like movement speed, heat level, weapon range, ect to discourage massive boating of pinpoint alpha weapons.

no one seriously runs a 5 ppc stalker. to even bring it up is laughable.

On a 4 ppc stalker they all come out of the high energy on the arms. that is why they are so effective at hill humping.

Again it does not discourage that. I feel like I am typing to a brick wall here. You guys keep saying the same blatantly false things.

[Tombstoner]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

And how does it do that? PPCs on stalkers shoot out of the same port from the arms. How exactly could you explain that they don't hit the same location other than "reasons"?

Nothing to do with countering sniping? Are you saying you are tired of people pin pointing damage with SRMs? cause i really doubt that is what you are saying.

Weapons that are mounted in the same location would be considered as one weapon. i think that you should benefit from boating in one location like the hunchback, but have a counter and that is its easier to destroy.

multiple weapons in the same firing group in different locations would have a higher COF and thus the damage get spread, but the weapons in the same section all should hit the same location.

Your concerns are valid and can be accounted for within a COF

[Lostdragon]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Cool, so when I charge a stalker with a medium, I know he won't move as my reticle spreads my damage all over the mech.

Do you really not see how this completely bones any fast mech?

You don't make high alpha pinpoint a niche, you make it the only way to play the game ie, the exact same position we are in now.

Currently brawlers do nothing cause lasers /srms spread way to much to make up for the damage you take getting in range. Your system actually reinforces that.

So you balance the system at 270 meters if you are using blooming reticles. Make it so that at 270 meters the reticle bloom is about the same size as the CT of a heavy mech. If you can hold your lasers on target this means you have only slightly more spread than now, especially if lights get a skill that reduces bloom.

With this type of mechanic a sniper has to stop and manage heat to fire accurately, giving brawlers and strikers more opportunity to close. If the pilot trees or variant quirks reduce bloom for strikers and brawlers then they have the advantage in close because they will get less bloom than the sniper who is forced to move or get picked apart.

[ExtremeA79]

Artgathan, on 14 June 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

What if the CoF is replaced with a de-convergence system. This means that as you did things to make the mech more inaccurate (high heat, running, using jump jets) the different components of the mech (LA, RA, LT, RT) lose their convergence on a pinpoint location. However! Every location is still pinpoint accurate.

What I mean is that imagine your targeting reticule is actually made up of 5 dots stacked on top of eachother (CT, LT, RT, LA, RA). As you run these dots move apart (in a horizontal or otherwise predictable pattern). All the weapons in each location converge on the point they correspond to (IE: if there's 2 ML in my RA, they both hit the same place, but they won't hit the same place as the PPC in my LA). Using this players can still be pinpoint accurate, but they must rotate their mech to get all the weapons onto the same point (IE: I have to fire my RA first, twist to bring my LA aimpoint onto target and then fire my LA).

THAT IS WHAT WE NEED.
NOT THIS STUPID CONE OF FIRE COD STYLE.

[I am]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

never played WoT and am not a BT purist

Go project on someone else.

Ya read your posts a little to get an idea of where you are coming from. You seem to be more of the CoD kiddie, who wants to run around at absurd speeds with perfect accuracy. Run and gun is fine and fun, but I'm not sure if MWO should be the CoD with Mech skins you'd like it to be. Try Hawken.

Edited by I am, 14 June 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[tenderloving]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Cool, so when I charge a stalker with a medium, I know he won't move as my reticle spreads my damage all over the mech.

Do you really not see how this completely bones any fast mech?

You don't make high alpha pinpoint a niche, you make it the only way to play the game ie, the exact same position we are in now.

Currently brawlers do nothing cause lasers /srms spread way to much to make up for the damage you take getting in range. Your system actually reinforces that.

Just throwing this out there- the system could be tweaked. Every mech won't have the same characteristics or be affected exactly the same.

[3rdworld]

Artgathan, on 14 June 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

What if the CoF is replaced with a de-convergence system. This means that as you did things to make the mech more inaccurate (high heat, running, using jump jets) the different components of the mech (LA, RA, LT, RT) lose their convergence on a pinpoint location. However! Every location is still pinpoint accurate.

What I mean is that imagine your targeting reticule is actually made up of 5 dots stacked on top of eachother (CT, LT, RT, LA, RA). As you run these dots move apart (in a horizontal or otherwise predictable pattern). All the weapons in each location converge on the point they correspond to (IE: if there's 2 ML in my RA, they both hit the same place, but they won't hit the same place as the PPC in my LA). Using this players can still be pinpoint accurate, but they must rotate their mech to get all the weapons onto the same point (IE: I have to fire my RA first, twist to bring my LA aimpoint onto target and then fire my LA).

It would be really hard to put all my weapons in the same 1 or 2 locations.....

OR you would just completely screw over all mechs which that isn't possible.

You decide.

[tenderloving]

Artgathan, on 14 June 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

What if the CoF is replaced with a de-convergence system. This means that as you did things to make the mech more inaccurate (high heat, running, using jump jets) the different components of the mech (LA, RA, LT, RT) lose their convergence on a pinpoint location. However! Every location is still pinpoint accurate.

What I mean is that imagine your targeting reticule is actually made up of 5 dots stacked on top of eachother (CT, LT, RT, LA, RA). As you run these dots move apart (in a horizontal or otherwise predictable pattern). All the weapons in each location converge on the point they correspond to (IE: if there's 2 ML in my RA, they both hit the same place, but they won't hit the same place as the PPC in my LA). Using this players can still be pinpoint accurate, but they must rotate their mech to get all the weapons onto the same point (IE: I have to fire my RA first, twist to bring my LA aimpoint onto target and then fire my LA).

This would be ideal. Fights would be much more interesting and objectively more "skill-based" than what we have now.

edit: LOL I just found a pic I made a while ago of my idea that is close to your system.

Edited by tenderloving, 14 June 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[DaZur]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Cool, so when I charge a stalker with a medium, I know he won't move as my reticle spreads my damage all over the mech.

Do you really not see how this completely bones any fast mech?

You don't make high alpha pinpoint a niche, you make it the only way to play the game ie, the exact same position we are in now.

Currently brawlers do nothing cause lasers /srms spread way to much to make up for the damage you take getting in range. Your system actually reinforces that.

You're overlooking the fact that as a fast-mover closes with it's target, the de-harmonization deviation is mitigated by range.

Exercise: Pick an aim point on something 10 yards. away... hold out your hand in front of you, stick your thumb up like a weapon sight and walk briskly toward whatever you're aiming at....
1.) at 50 yards it's tough to keep your thumb-sight perfectly on target. As you draw closer it will linearly become easier to keep your aim-point as the thing you're aiming at draws closer (grows bigger) and fills your sight... eventually even though you thumb-sight deviates... you can keep you aim perfectly sighted.

In short... due to the small deviating swing... once you close in your target it becomes so nominal "on target" that you effectively have pin-point damage again.

[3rdworld]

tenderloving, on 14 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Just throwing this out there- the system could be tweaked. Every mech won't have the same characteristics or be affected exactly the same.

Again, to fix nothing, you are going to need developers that cannot balance this system, or probably their checkbook.

But now they need to balance weapons accuracy, per weapon, per mech, per variant, per hardpoint.

sounds like a winner.

[DocBach]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

no one seriously runs a 5 ppc stalker. to even bring it up is laughable.

On a 4 ppc stalker they all come out of the high energy on the arms. that is why they are so effective at hill humping.

Again it does not discourage that. I feel like I am typing to a brick wall here. You guys keep saying the same blatantly false things.

four PPC stalker firing from two different locations with expanding convergence means damage is spread out still - And I'm the wall? I've put up visual **** and you still aren't getting it.