459 replies to this topic

[Valore]

Yes. Make it like every FPS in the last 10 years, it gets smaller until its pinpoint as long as you stand still and keep a bead on your target, and gets large when you start jumping around, running about, twisting like crazy to brawl, etc.

Convergence is a huge issue in this game.

To quote a friend:

Quote

Just look at the difference between an AC/20 and a medium laser: 4 times the damage for 14 times the weight and 10 times the size. That's how useful extra damage to a single location is [in TT].

Edited by Valore, 13 June 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Valore, on 13 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Yes. Make it like every FPS in the last 10 years, it gets smaller until its pinpoint as long as you stand still and keep a bead on your target, and gets large when you start jumping around, running about, twisting like crazy to brawl, etc.

Convergence is a huge issue in this game.

Why do you think an AC20 is so technically 'inefficient' in terms of weights and slots compared to a medium laser. Pinpoint accuracy/focused damage in one spot was that valuable in the game.

Dear god was it.
Hunch-G was a terror, It took a 55-60 ton mech running near full armor to not immediately lose armor on most hit locations from a single AC/20 shell.
Losing armor somewhere meant you were about to be severely impaired, but probably not for very long.

Also that's part of why the LBX was so good in TT, load a slug to punch a hole in someone's armor, then load the cluster rounds to start racking up the crits.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 June 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Slashmckill]

Traigus, on 13 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

I personally want auto shutdown gone. You wanna shoot a lot, dance with the devil you brought and take the damage. it is actually very hard to overide the shutdown and take damage in MWO.

I'd like it off and make people much more careful of crossing the line.

So you are saying you would like the opposite of what we have now? So before you overheat you hit the overide switch so for the next 5 seconds if you go past your heat limit you shutdown instead of taking heat damage? I kind of like the sound of that.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Traigus, on 13 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

I personally want auto shutdown gone. You wanna shoot a lot, dance with the devil you brought and take the damage. it is actually very hard to overide the shutdown and take damage in MWO.

I'd like it off and make people much more careful of crossing the line.

If you did remove auto-shut down, then at least let people do it manually to reduce internal damage when over 100%. Perhaps even let a shut-down mech have boosted heat dissipation across the board (the power-up sequence would be re-energizing weapons and so on).

[DocBach]

Unbound Inferno, on 13 June 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Well, let's lay it out;


Effects that would adjust it;
Moving
JJ/Falling
Heat
Torso/Arm twist shifting

The hardest point would be moving first. Full speed running should be the biggest factor scaled by the speed you move. Faster you go, the more wild it gets. This alleviates some more static position changes down to a minor nudge - but not as pinpoint as standing still.

JJ and Falling should be approached in different sphere, but mentioned together. a JJ boost ought to be noticeable while its on and adding it to running makes it wild to say the least. Falling should be less as physics demands a pretty static rate of falling regardless.

Heat should be a scaled measure. Less heat, less noticeable - but if you run hot the shots just become wild as a penalty of it.

Last I want to at least urge including torso twist and arm movements slightly but not by much. Adjusting your aim and direction you are facing should have a penalty but nothing drastic. Just a minor quirk that adds up in the greater scheme but shouldn't make it impossible to turn and hit someone fast. Just make it so you spread your hits slightly.

Variables shift from weapon to weapon - where your targeting would only show the largest cone of your equipped weapons.

Some weapons like Pulse Lasers which are intended to maintain good accuracy would have smaller comes where others like an Ultra AC would suffer from a larger one.

something like this, where the stadia lines of the reticule actually have some use - they can serve as aiming reference points for holds due to convergence. The left and right stadia lines would be where the side torsos weapons are converged on, the middle of that would be where CT shots go (stays the same as CT shots are literally pointing and squaring up the torso on to a target.)

[Unbound Inferno]

DocBach, on 13 June 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

something like this, where the stadia lines of the reticule actually have some use - they can serve as aiming reference points for holds due to convergence. The left and right stadia lines would be where the side torsos weapons are converged on, the middle of that would be where CT shots go (stays the same as CT shots are literally pointing and squaring up the torso on to a target.)

That can work. Not quite inaccurate but a reference for how its a wider spread that eliminates pure convergence which is the fundamental flaw in this game.

[Lightfoot]

No. Mech's move and shoot. Move faster, get hit less. Moving faster does throw speed-bumps in your path which knocks your aim off. So except for the weapons that use cone effects like LBX, MWO should retain it's accuracy requirement.

You might achieve similar results by making the center torso of mechs smaller. Mechs would become alot tougher. Players would miss more often.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 June 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Traigus]

Slashmckill, on 13 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

So you are saying you would like the opposite of what we have now? So before you overheat you hit the overide switch so for the next 5 seconds if you go past your heat limit you shutdown instead of taking heat damage? I kind of like the sound of that.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

If you did remove auto-shut down, then at least let people do it manually to reduce internal damage when over 100%. Perhaps even let a shut-down mech have boosted heat dissipation across the board (the power-up sequence would be re-energizing weapons and so on).

Yeah I mean take out auto shutdown, or move it to like 250%- 300%.


We can always manually shut down... but let us not make it instant coolant blowout.

Damage taken while shut down is "invisble" because HUD is off (if it happens at all, I don't think it does at the moment.).People don't see it, fear it or learn from it... and I don't think it happens right now, unless you actively overide

-As MWO is now. if I hit "O" EXACTLY at the right time I skip shutdown and can blow up my ammo and take internals. It is beastly hard to do. So 90% of the time I am just using "O" to restart from auto shutdown. I don't know about you.

I want it off, so If i want to take that alpha to 125% then I can hear the sizzle and watch things fry as I wait for cool down, or risk even more by still firing.

People will get to make a choice to blow themselves up.

They can shut down and get a % bonus to cooldown, but still take damage until it gets below level. They could also run away.

[Haruspex Pariah]

If the concern is the inability to properly target sub-components with a cone, consider:

1) Such an ability never existed in TT, outside of the Targeting Computer which came with extra tonnage/critical space and penalties to target a location. Maybe you don't care about adherence to TT, which is a valid viewpoint since this is a different game, so...

2) The current ability to simply duct tape multiple weapons all of which will hit the same location in one simultaneous shot doesn't jive with the numbers PGI cribbed from TT. Those numbers are derived from a system that randomly allocates hits for each weapon fired.In that system the ability to inflict high amounts of pinpoint damage is highly valuable which has a knock-on effect on the relative stats of the various weapons. This is the beating heart of the alpha boat issue. Either they overhaul the stats (tonnage, crit space, range, damage, cooldown) for every single weapon to account for pinpoint damage, maybe even revert to the (seemingly) maligned MW4 hardpoint system, or do away with pinpoint damage and keep the stats as they are. I prefer doing away with pinpoint damage, hence my support for the cone of fire idea.

To be clear, pinpoint damage in itself isn't a bad thing (it might work in other games with different variables), but when you plug it into a system that runs on numbers derived from a game without pinpoint damage you get all kinds of crazy.

2a) Other solutions proposed for the alpha pinpoint issue include moar heat (fail against Gauss rifles and AC/20), forcing players to chain fire (may affect flow of combat and DPS, which isn't the problem, but doesn't mess with direct-line aiming), more severe penalties for heat (could work, but again fail against Gauss and AC/20). Cone of fire allows for simulatenous firing of weapons but without pinpoint damage, which is why I like it.

[JP Josh]

um i dont like this because while ya its good for bigger mechs what about the jehner who is using the speed to avoid the crushing power of a atlas???

your idea may as well toss mechs out that require use of speed as a real asset.

i havnt played yet since the jj nerf but from what i hear from my little bro hes had to reasses how my family and him role in our jehner pack.

[YueFei]

I don't support a cone of fire, but I do support a total loss of convergence when firing a stack of weapons simultaneously. Weapons fired in rapid succession would still be pin-point accurate. You can still twist and maneuver to spread damage, but if you sit there you'll eat every shot to the same spot.

That makes it so that the spread-out damage in TT is actually due to mech pilots maneuvering and shifting, not due to horrible aim or lousy targeting computers.

I'd also make the mechs *more* maneuverable across the board, with better acceleration, and a sharper contrast in turn rates based on current speed. Making mechs shiftier will also make it harder to focus damage onto a single component.

Edited by YueFei, 13 June 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Traigus]

JP Josh, on 13 June 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

um i dont like this because while ya its good for bigger mechs what about the jehner who is using the speed to avoid the crushing power of a atlas???

your idea may as well toss mechs out that require use of speed as a real asset.

i havnt played yet since the jj nerf but from what i hear from my little bro hes had to reasses how my family and him role in our jehner pack.

You will be shooting bigger guys that take up more of your screen. Hard to miss "wall of atlas" even at 120 kph. Though it will be hard to hit it in the eye unless you stop and aim out the cone.

[One Medic Army]

JP Josh, on 13 June 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

um i dont like this because while ya its good for bigger mechs what about the jehner who is using the speed to avoid the crushing power of a atlas???

your idea may as well toss mechs out that require use of speed as a real asset.

i havnt played yet since the jj nerf but from what i hear from my little bro hes had to reasses how my family and him role in our jehner pack.

Well, it'd make your Jenner harder to kill, so it's not a complete nerf.
Also the movement penalties (if any) should be for percent throttle rather than absolute velocity, meaning Jenners at 100% throttle wouldn't be less accurate than an atlas at 100% throttle.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 June 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Sybreed]

JP Josh, on 13 June 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

um i dont like this because while ya its good for bigger mechs what about the jehner who is using the speed to avoid the crushing power of a atlas???

your idea may as well toss mechs out that require use of speed as a real asset.

i havnt played yet since the jj nerf but from what i hear from my little bro hes had to reasses how my family and him role in our jehner pack.

like I said, shorter range weapons are less affected by movement and should still be reliably accurate without being completely pinpoint. That way your jenner stays effective on the move.

Edited by Sybreed, 13 June 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[Slashmckill]

YueFei, on 13 June 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

That makes it so that the spread-out damage in TT is actually due to mech pilots maneuvering and shifting, not due to horrible aim or lousy targeting computers.

Except mechs from the IS DO have lousy targeting computers.

[Asmudius Heng]

Also remember that the values for weapons right now might not be good for a CoF system. They would need adjusting heavily to take into account a completely new paradigm.

I dont think PGI has the stomach to make such a huge change though, i can see why, but I also believe it would be better for the game long term if done right.

[JP Josh]

Traigus, on 13 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

You will be shooting bigger guys that take up more of your screen. Hard to miss "wall of atlas" even at 120 kph. Though it will be hard to hit it in the eye unless you stop and aim out the cone.

and that is what makes a jehner deadly the ability to target one part. you make weapons spread dmg over a large earea and the mech wont be effective at all.

do you have any idea how long it takes for a jehner to destroy a single limb on a atlas pilot who knows what hes doing?

[Waking One]

And you could even introduce better targeting computers as per lore to help mitigate it.

Convergence is a huge issue in this game and needs addressing, atm mechs die too fast to feel like actual mechs.

[Lootee]

There's really only 3 options:

1) Do nothing. Enjoy the 35, 40, 45, 60 pt AWM kill shots for the next year until the game fails.

2) Spread the impact points out in space. The idea discussed here.

3) Spread the impacts out over time. Make the player work for consecutive hits on the same component. This is what PGI is trying to do with the heat penalties but it won't be enough and won't deter gauss/ac20/ppc+gauss combo at all. I'd rather see a limit on the number of weapons that can be fired within a short time span. 1 big heavy hitting gun or up to 3 or 4 smaller guns per .5-1.0sec. That way the player maintains control of where the shots go, but it puts an end to the Death Star super laser 1 salvo kills.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 13 June 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[YueFei]

Slashmckill, on 13 June 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Except mechs from the IS DO have lousy targeting computers.

You don't exactly need fancy targeting computers to hit stuff at 500 meters. Some optics and robotics kinematics equations slaved to those optics and you can hit whatever you're pointing at.

A better option than taking away a player's control over where his shots go is to simply force him to space out his shots in rapid succession. That alone will remove the ability to put massive pin-point damage into one spot with a single shot. If you are being targetted and you sit there and don't move, I think you deserve to get hit in the same spot every single time by a "skilled" shooter (not that it would take much skill to do that).

I also support having actual recoil on the weapons, so that when you fire your crosshairs get shoved up or to the side (the same way Mechwarrior 3 did it), and you have to manually drag the crosshairs back into the target for follow-up shots.