34 replies to this topic

[Kazma]

Hi guys, I am relatively new and I never liked Mechwarrior games when looking at them , but then I tried MWO, and I'm still playing it

However, there is one thing aside from bugs etc. that bugs me most.
It is the AC20.
What is this supposed to be? A weapon with superior power and almost no comparable penalty...
You can see at least one Dual AC20 Jager in every game and if they aren't completely dumb they always do most damage. They are annoying in both teams.
If a weapon has that huge amount of power and doesn't have any penalty or skill needed, why is it even possible to mount two of them?
Why AC20 and not AC15, or limit them so they can use only one of them.
Why is there so little difference in wheight and slots used between AC10 and AC20.
Its doing twice its damage but only 2 more tons and 3 more slots.
Overall the High Alpha damage problem in MWO bugs me, but PPC builds aren't that strong though, they have penaltys with heat and heatsinks and the next patch will increase that even more, but they also should be limited to max 4 of them imo.


Thats it ... finally got the incentive to share my thoughts about it because my team was getting ***** by two AC40 mechs 3 times in a row now.

I don't want the game to be called AC20 warrior online all the time.. lol

*edit* just noticed the title having an error*

Edited by Kazma, 15 June 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[El Bandito]

Instant convergence is the biggest culprit here. If PGI changes the convergence to have some delays and/or let any arms without lower arm actuator only shoot forward, then we won't have this huge damage in single area problem.

The reason why we do not have AC15 or weird tonnage difference between AC10 and AC20 is due to the BT table top rule, the game is based on. Never liked it much but it has firm root in many Mechwarrior fans.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 June 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[Kaspirikay]

AC20s have longer cooldown and much shorter ranges than AC10s.

But it does suck to face a dual ac20 yaygur or boomcat

[Cubivorre]

Personally, I think it should weigh more. But that's about the only change I'd make to it. Maybe add on 2 or 3 tons to it's current weight and I'd say it's good.

[Renalvic3312]

The AC20 is balanced as a single weapon, having two is the only problem, perhaps that ac20s could be fixed by simply adding a accuracy penalty for shooting 2+

[Tennex]

The AC20 is actually pretty heavy on heat plus its got a short range.

the Gauss is really the weapon with no penalty

[Kiiyor]

Well, it's weight and size are quite restrictive. It also has a low range, and not a whole lot of ammo per tonne. It's fragile too. Personally, I like gauss better, explodiness included.

It is currently also the ONLY really viable brawling weapon in the game, IMHO. One by itself is just about perfect for the drawbacks it brings - 2 in a Yager are the mech equivalent of shooting Chuck Norris's fists at your enemies.

Its prevalalence on the battlefield is a different matter though - for an AC20 round to do damage to me, it needs to find a piece of my mech that hasn't been brutally savaged by PPC and gauss fire.

[I am]

Has to be an alt. No one could argue ac20s are op with a straight face.

[Kazma]

El Bandito, on 15 June 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

Instant convergence is the biggest culprit here. If PGI changes the convergence to have some delays and/or let any arms without lower arm actuator only shoot forward, then we won't have this huge damage in single area problem.

The reason why we do not have AC15 or weird tonnage difference between AC10 and AC20 is due to the BT table top rule, the game is based on. Never liked it much but it has firm root in many Mechwarrior fans.

Interesting, I hope the devs don't concentrate too much on what the game is based on but rather the balancing for an MMO.

Tennex, on 15 June 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

The AC20 is actually pretty heavy on heat plus its got a short range.

the Gauss is really the weapon with no penalty

Gauss cann explode, does 5 damage less and wheight 1 ton more then AC20

Kiiyor, on 15 June 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Well, it's weight and size are quite restrictive. It also has a low range, and not a whole lot of ammo per tonne. It's fragile too. Personally, I like gauss better, explodiness included.

It is currently also the ONLY really viable brawling weapon in the game, IMHO. One by itself is just about perfect for the drawbacks it brings - 2 in a Yager are the mech equivalent of shooting Chuck Norris's fists at your enemies.

Its prevalalence on the battlefield is a different matter though - for an AC20 round to do damage to me, it needs to find a piece of my mech that hasn't been brutally savaged by PPC and gauss fire.

compared to other weapons it doesn't have enough penaltys like wheight and other stuff
You're right, its the only brawler weapon thats useful with SRM's being almost useless right now. It has more range more damage and it is relatively easy to use.
I am running Mediums and Lights, so each AC40 hit equals death or at least low to 0 armor left on that part

I am, on 15 June 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Has to be an alt. No one could argue ac20s are op with a straight face.

this is definetly my only account

[Joseph Mallan]

Kazma, on 15 June 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Gauss cann explode, does 5 damage less and wheight 1 ton more then AC20

That -5 damage is offset by having 3-5 times the range of the AC20 and -6 heat per shot. Sure hi the Gauss and it blows up, but not for the same amount as an AC ammo hit!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 June 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

AC40 mechs sacrfice quite a bit to carry twin AC20. Simple math. They are running XL engines or skimping heavily on armor, speed etc in order to carry those two guns and 4+ tons of ammo. In brawl ranges ALL of the above severely reduce durability (engine size also influences torso twist). So, don't lose your head and panic when you see one, even under the unfortunate circumstance of turning the corner and BOOM one just shot you.....play to the weaknesses of the build and tear it apart.

Frankly, if I see a AC40 Mech outside of 270m, I absolutely salivate, because it's a vulnerable Mech to prey on.

[Farix]

I fully expect the same heat penatlies that will be applied to energy weapons to also apply to balistics at a later date. Based on the two examples given, it seems that 30 damange from one group fire is the limit before any penalties come into play. That will catch those dual AC/20s, but not most of the other balistics. (Has anyone tried boating more than 3 AC/10s?)

[Zerberus]

Farix, on 15 June 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

I fully expect the same heat penatlies that will be applied to energy weapons to also apply to balistics at a later date. Based on the two examples given, it seems that 30 damange from one group fire is the limit before any penalties come into play. That will catch those dual AC/20s, but not most of the other balistics. (Has anyone tried boating more than 3 AC/10s?)

The examples given were also specifically stated to be theoretical and not necessarily applicable to the game as such.

There are canon mechs w/ 2 AC/20s, just as there are canon mechs w/9 Mlas (the stated hunch), 3 ppcs (Aws), 4 LLas, 4 mgs, etc.....

This is why they specifically stated that in that same post they would be referencing canon so as not to castrate canon loadouts, and also the reason for tuning each weapon INDIVIDUALLY.

If 30 were some sort of Cap, how exactly would they handle weapons like the HAG 40 when they eventually become available? Heat penalty just for firing one, even though there are canon mechs that have 2? I don`t think so...

This is the problem with reading between the lines, the chances of misinforming yourself are massive

Edited by Zerberus, 15 June 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Zerberus, on 15 June 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

The examples given were also specifically stated to be theoretical and not necessarily applicable to the game as such.

There are canon mechs w/ 2 AC/20s, just as there are canon mechs w/9 Mlas (the stated hunch), 3 ppcs (Aws), 4 LLas, 4 mgs, etc.....

This is why they specifically stated that in that same post they would be referencing canon so as not to castrate canon loadouts, and also the reason for tuning each weapon INDIVIDUALLY.

If 30 were some sort of Cap, how exactly would they handle weapons like the HAG 40 when they eventually become available? Heat penalty just for firing one, even though there are canon mechs that have 2? I don`t think so...

This is the problem with reading between the lines, the chances of misinforming yourself are massive

You hit the nail on the head.

They need to work on the heat penalty of boating on a chassis by chassis basis, and it appears that they are doing so. You should not punish an Awesome for using 3 PPCs, that is the whole point of the mech. But if they do it right then other mechs will be at a disadvantage when using 3 PPCs which should then push people to using the Awesome if they want to boat PPCs.

I am not sure it will work out like that, but that is the general idea (as far as I understand it)

[Ngamok]

Farix, on 15 June 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

(Has anyone tried boating more than 3 AC/10s?)

I've seen a Muromets with 3 Gauss before.

[Kell Commander]

AC 20 Jagers are able to mount 2 of them solely because they lack lower arm actuators and have ballistic slots in the arms. This allows them to have an XL and to give them decent armor and enough ammo (7 shots per ton is not much at all. Take it from a guy who has a Phract 1X that relies on the AC 20 for most of it's damage).

If you see them, keep your distance and aim for a side torso. About 70% of the time they mount XL engines, and in the other 30% of the time you made that mech much less threatening. Especially if you get their back, one good alpha from a 50+ ton mech can rip the entire side off if the person ignored their back armor.

[Soy]

[The Strange]

Dual AC20 has no drawbacks? Really? Lets see, they weigh 14 tons each, take up 10 critical slots, only get 7 ammo per ton, have a 4 second cooldown, an effective range (for full damage) of 270m, and oh yeah, you have to run an XL engine to use them. So you really only get about 24 dual shots with them in a whole match, you have to get in close to get good damage, you risk being cored out in any of your torsos (which are rather large), and you need to make every shot count.

Seems like it has drawbacks to me.

[TheBossHammer]

Yeah, the AC/20 is perfectly fine when mounted alone, the problem is the 2xAC/20 Jager, and even then, it's only because that mech can put two of those shots directly into the exact same spot. The AC/20 actually kinda sucks compared to the Gauss Rifle in 99% of situations, the only time the AC/20 comes out ahead is when its superior damage can be put on target in a brawl. If you see a double AC/20 Jager, get away from it, don't move towards it. Almost any other weapon will be better from 300 ish meters by tonnage than the AC/20.

[Lootee]

Kazma, on 15 June 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Why is there so little difference in wheight and slots used between AC10 and AC20.
Its doing twice its damage but only 2 more tons and 3 more slots.

Because FASA didn't really know what they were doing with the first couple editions of TT rules (which MWO mostly adheres to).

FASA realized the AC/10 was a terrible deal and tried to fix it with Ultra and LBX ACs. As you noted, the standard AC/10 weighs almost as much as an AC/20 or Gauss Rifle but came nowhere close to being as potent as either.

LB10 X-AC is better than the inferior AC/10 in every way, it has the same range as a PPC, generates less heat, weighs 1 ton less, and can either do 10 points of damage like a PPC or do a cluster attack like missiles with a better chance to hit.

Ultra 10 AC weighs more than the standard AC/10, but has a longer range and can fire a cluster of 2 shots, which might both do damage.

In MWO the AC/10 is further made obsolete with the maximum range model they use. The AC/20 does twice as much dmg as the AC/10 up to 270m, and does the same amount of damage up to 540m (120% the effective range of AC/10). The only thing the AC/10 can really do that the AC/20 can't is jab at an enemy for 3 or 4 pts of dmg at 1000m.

If they ever fixed it so AC/20 criticals can be split between arms/torsos, or added the fully featured LB10X the regular AC/10 would go to a well deserved demise. At least, until armor piercing ammo for the regular ACs comes out, but the armor piercing AC/20 will still eclipse its mediocre little brother.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 15 June 2013 - 03:41 PM.