210 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

Look at this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7912f0b2df98ae3

More or less a "typical" AC40 Jager.

Now look @it again:

Shoot Head = Dead (AC20 ammo in the head makes this even more easy)
Shoot Right Torso = Dead, because of XL.
Shoot Left Torso = Dead, because of XL.
Shoot Right Leg = Dead, because of AmmoExp. trans. into the side torsos.
Shoot Left Leg = Dead, because of AmmoExp. trans. into the side torsos.
Shoot Arm = Loses 44.44% Firepower

Eff Max Range = 270m (!!!)
Ammo based.
Terrible heat eff.

Now tell me whats OP here?

EDIT: "optimal one"

Edited by WolvesX, 15 June 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[FupDup]

I don't think I've experienced this mech enough to call it OP/UP/balanced, but what I can say for sure is that it is by far the most common Jager build of all time. If there's a Jager on your team, he has to have AC/40. If there is an enemy Jager, he is an AC/40 as well.

Edited by FupDup, 15 June 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

i've seen ppc jagers too. not as effective as their ac/40 brethren imo.

[Rahnu]

The fact is that they can do 10 DPS consistently in the space of the same subsystem repeatedly with 100% accuracy and low heat generation, outclassing every other weapon configuration in the same range bracket.

Of course, this might be more because the other medium-short range weapon systems are all awful, but even if they were all able to keep up with this kind of firepower I don't think the game would be better off for it.

Edited by Zyrusticae, 15 June 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[WolvesX]

FupDup, on 15 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

I don't think I've experienced this mech enough to call it OP/UP/balanced, but what I can say for sure is that it is by far the most common Jager build of all time. If there's a Jager on your team, he has to have AC/40. If there is an enemy Jager, he is an AC/40.

I like the BOOM factor, but I would never play it in 8v8.

Its got terrible range and its made out of paper.

AC40 is just because its fun to play.

Edited by WolvesX, 15 June 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Kazma]

The fact that one or two hits are enough to make many mechs helpless and two AC40 Jagers in one lance most likely win any games.

[FupDup]

WolvesX, on 15 June 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

AC40 is just because its fun to play.

Sort of like how 4 ERPPC is the most common Stalker build? Again, I'm not saying it's OP/UP/whatever. I'm just saying that it is the de-facto end-all-be-all most common build of Jagers (at least when I play it is), sort of like the classic SSRM Craven, the ERPPC Spider 5V, 6 ML Jenner, pre-SRM nerf A1, brawler D-DC, etc. Some builds are just plain better than most others for a mech.

Edited by FupDup, 15 June 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[WolvesX]

Zyrusticae, on 15 June 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

The fact is that they can do 10 DPS consistently in the space of the same subsystem repeatedly with 100% accuracy and low heat generation, outclassing every other weapon configuration in the same range bracket.

Of course, this might be more because the other medium-short range weapon systems are all awful, but even if they were all able to keep up with this kind of firepower I don't think the game would be better off for it.

That is the point.

The other MELEE weapons are super awefull.

SRMs are dead, Pulse Lasers are dead, LBX is dead. That is the true problem.

[TELEFORCE]

I've played the dual AC/20 Jagermech, and it is fun, but it is far from being viable, especially when you can randomly get a long-range map and get screwed from the start, which is, IMO, good for game balance.

Dual Gauss rifles are far more viable due to their range and faster travel time, but I still tote small and medium ACs the most. Currently running dual AC/2s and UAC/5s and small lasers, and it's by far the biggest damage dealer in my hangar.

[Bishop Steiner]

WolvesX, on 15 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

AC40 JAGER IS A FUN BUILD, NOT AN OPTIMAL ONE!

FTFY

Seems like a lot of folk confuse the terms "Viable" and "Optimal"

vi·a·ble [vahy-uh-buhl] adjective
1.capable of living.
2. Physiology .
a. physically fitted to live.
b. (of a fetus) having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.
3. Botany . able to live and grow.
4. vivid; real; stimulating, as to the intellect, imagination, or senses: a period of history that few teachers can make viable for students.
5. practicable; workable: a viable alternative.

vs

op·ti·mum (or "optimal") [op-tuh-muhm] , plural op·ti·ma [-muh] , op·ti·mums, adjective
noun
1. the best or most favorable point, degree, amount, etc., as of temperature, light, and moisture for the growth or reproduction of an organism.
2. the greatest degree or best result obtained or obtainable under specific conditions.
adjective
3. most favorable or desirable; best: optimum conditions.

just sayin!
the AC40 Jager is perfectly viable, in that it can be workable. I would agree it's shortcomings keep it from being optimal, though.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 June 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[WolvesX]

The point is, if you got a LL or a PPC and someone other got BRAWLING weapons like SRM AC20 LBX, should should be owned in melee range, because you have the advantage of 1000m range.

RISK vs REWARD!

Bishop Steiner, on 15 June 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

snip

the AC40 Jager is perfectly viable, in that it can be workable. I would agree it's shortcomings keep it from being optimal, though.

Yup, you got that point.

Its not an optimal one.

But its HIGH Risk - HIGH Reward.

Edited by WolvesX, 15 June 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Lucky 7]

I usually get a better performance with my other Jagers over the AC40.
I find them also more fun to play...

But that could just be me.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 15 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

I don't think I've experienced this mech enough to call it OP/UP/balanced, but what I can say for sure is that it is by far the most common Jager build of all time. If there's a Jager on your team, he has to have AC/40. If there is an enemy Jager, he is an AC/40 as well.

I prefer my 6A with AC/2s and ASRMs (until the friggin SRM got turned into a cream puff) or with ALRMs. And actually run it more than my DD with 2x AC20. Am tinkering with a mod of one of CarrionCrow's versions, essentially making a Crusader Mech.

Not sure of my verdict yet.

[Zerberus]

I was actually surprised as hell yesterday when I blew a Jäger`s side torso off and he didn`t die.... gotton so used to the AC/40s that I thought it must have been a bug. Then I saw that he wasn`t even carrying ac/40 (or the alternative ac/12), which surprised me even more

[Bishop Steiner]

WolvesX, on 15 June 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

The point is, if you got a LL or a PPC and someone other got BRAWLING weapons like SRM AC20 LBX, should should be owned in melee range, because you have the advantage of 1000m range.

RISK vs REWARD!

Yup, you got that point.

Its not an optimal one.

But its HIGH Risk - HIGH Reward.

very true. Though I find the map to be less a factor, as I usually can ghost cover til I get in range. Not always, like you say, the risk v the reward. But the number of times enemy mechs have rounded the corner to the Radio Tower on Alpine only to get a face full of AC40 has been more reward than risk for me.
(Admittedly helps that they usually have had a steady diet of PPC and LRMs up to that point, too. Teamwork, the thuly OP part of Mechwarrior! )

[Adridos]

WolvesX, on 15 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Eff Max Range = 270m (!!!)

Actually, AC/20 has an effective max range of 810 meters... with damage degradation, but it's still one heck of a punch even at medium ranges.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kazma, on 15 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

The fact that one or two hits are enough to make many mechs helpless and two AC40 Jagers in one lance most likely win any games.

Yeah just like a single AC20 on TT. Glorious!

[Zerberus]

Adridos, on 15 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Actually, AC/20 has an effective max range of 810 meters... with damage degradation, but it's still one heck of a punch even at medium ranges.

No, it has an effective range of 270m, with an max range of 810. Effective range is where your weapons will do the most damage the most often.

RL example: an M4 has an effective range of around 350-400m. But its max range with optics and a skilled shooter is about 1 km, despite the loss in penetration due to the deceleration of the round starting at or shortly after passing its effective range.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adridos, on 15 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Actually, AC/20 has an effective max range of 810 meters... with damage degradation, but it's still one heck of a punch even at medium ranges.

very true, out to 540 it hits like a PPC or a AC10, though with a much slower projectile. It's funny how many people overlook that and let me snipe them at medium ranges. AC20 is very potent, if one knows how to use it!

Zerberus, on 15 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

No, it has an effective range of 270m, with an max range of 810. Effective range is where your weapons will do the most damage the most often.

RL example: an M4 has an effective range of around 350-400m. But its max range with optics and a skilled shooter is about 1 km, despite the loss in penetration due to the deceleration of the round starting at or shortly after passing its effective range.

I call 10 dmg per hit pretty effective, still. I think Optimal Range is 270, yes, but it's effective to 540, and viable out to 810 (though with ammo constraints, and flight time, I have to be pretty sure, or pretty desperate to use one at that range)

[Oriius]

I have recently started to elite the jager, I've played a few with the AC 40 setup. It seems to be the ultimate ambush build, not a brawler though, if you try and get stuck in you die quickly and like anyone else if caught out in the open you die quick to ppc/gauss boats.

As for it's viability? It is clearly viable but it is limited to one niche role by virtue of using the only really top end close range weapon system. Is it on the high end of the meta? no, it's not up there with the ppc/gauss highlanders or ppc stalkers but it does still work in the meta.

It fills the close range backstabber/ambush role, and since SRM's are weak as are LBX 10's (brawler weapons) It meas the ac20 is the only top end close range weapon. Hence why it tends to be quite common.

With that said I've had a lot more fun in the A with 4 ssrm2's 2 uac5's & 2 ML's. (I think i just love UAC 5's)