48 replies to this topic

[StandingCow]

I don't think the issues in MWO are/were poptarts, I don't think the issue is high alpha builds, or lack of heat. I don't even think the issue is pinpoint accuracy. I think all of those, and other issues are symptoms of one major flaw in MWO....

The major issue is lack of weight balancing/limiting. You shouldn't see more than 2 assault battlemechs on the field in 12v12 let alone 8v8, hell I would argue no more than 1. You are supposed to have mostly mediums, a couple heavies... and maybe an assault. And you and your team should be scared to death of that one assault chassis.

So, PGI needs to scrap this idea of just extra incentives to run a balanced team, they need a hard limit put in place by either:
- Make it so you still have to have 12 mechs, but they can't go over a certain limit as a team.
- Make it so you can bring whatever you want, but you might be bringing a smaller team to stay under the limit.

Edited by StandingCow, 16 June 2013 - 02:16 AM.

[Ralgas]

CW and dropship mode *should* (cringes) fix it although limiting these builds on the battlefeild will put both thier advantages and disadvantages under the spotlight.

[Inkarnus]

tossing around with numbers
i bet they dont go under 800Tons drop limit [like 400 250 150 lances]
if yes they are making a very bold move

[Ralgas]

Inkarnus, on 16 June 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

tossing around with numbers
i bet they dont go under 800Tons drop limit [like 400 250 150 lances]
if yes they are making a very bold move

for 12 mechs 800 might not be that bad. (65 ton average) The problem will be shoehorning people into smaller mechs to keep queue times down

Edit: That said it will surely increase the number of firebrands, bj-1x's and possibly swaybacks out there

Edited by Ralgas, 16 June 2013 - 03:11 AM.

[Reno Blade]

The problem with that would still be the min-max of like 6 assaults and 6 lights instead of mostly medium weight classes on the field.
How do you "push" back the teams in mostly medium with some heavy/lights than only a very few assaults?
The lights can outrun any medium mech and go cap bases or swarm slow targets while the assaults just bring more firepower than med/heavy mechs.

I think this needs to be part of the system, but is not the only knob to tweak for a final solution.

If it would be something like BV (Battle Value) where you could have cheap mediums (some lights are even more expensive) and expensive assaults, then even with upcomming technology (like Clans) the balancing could be used.
Certain BV limits for certain modes to "force" lighter mech classes or lower tech (trial mechs with tech1 stock loadout) for the teams would also give diversity between the modes.

Edited by Reno Blade, 16 June 2013 - 03:14 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Reno Blade, on 16 June 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

The problem with that would still be the min-max of like 6 assaults and 6 lights instead of mostly medium weight classes on the field.
How do you "push" back the teams in mostly medium with some heavy/lights than only a very few assaults?
The lights can outrun any medium mech and go cap bases or swarm slow targets while the assaults just bring more firepower than med/heavy mechs.

I think this needs to be part of the system, but is not the only knob to tweak for a final solution.

You make mediums good.

[StandingCow]

The "incentive" system they mentioned in ask the devs would be enough for random PUGs, but CW will need a hard tonnage limit... based on reno's concerns I would even some sort of limit on assaults.

Maybe PGI could come up with their own BV system.

Edited by StandingCow, 16 June 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[mike29tw]

Here's hoping CW and dropship/lobby will have something to limit it.

Maybe you need to ready up for mechs, one of each weight class to start the match?

[Kwibl]

I think a hybrid system of tonnage + hard class restrictions would work.

As Reno said, with tonnage restrictions you're still probably going to see the extremes being used because it's easier to use than a team of mechs somewhere in the middle.

A hard class restriction would still encourage people to take the heaviest mech in each class to make the most of it, which again wouldn't really add anything.

Combine them both with certain modifiers (perhaps not tonnage, but a BV system that PGI calculates and alters) and you encourage some of the less optimal tonnage mechs back into the game to fill out tonnage.

Right now there just isn't any incentive to take less than optimal mechs or mechs designed to be second line, without an economy or other limit to encourage making the best with what you got type teams, i don't think this problem is ever going to go away.

[MustrumRidcully]

This is a theory I've heard from other players, too.

But I disagree with it. If you want to have 50 % mediums or whatever, you need to force people to play certain mechs, regardless of whether they enjoy them or not. You might even force them to play mechs they don't even own.

What if I buy 8 assaults but no light, medium, or heavy? Damn me to run trial mechs in those matches, trial mechs we all know suck terribly? Force me to wait eternities for the Queue to get me a match?

I believe the only way you can get a "battletech-conformistic" mech distrubtion, or even just an "equally balanced" mech distribution without forcing people to play mechs they don't want to play would be to make sure that all mech weight classes and all mechs are equally viable and relevant for winning a match. It must be as rewarding to play a medium as it is to play a heavy or assault.

[Ralgas]

yeah you're also likely to see people running in "balanced alpha pairs" like a stalker/bj-1x combo for our above example (65 ton average) and at higher levels matches made up of just 2-3 variants of mech.

[Soy]

Thank god you showed up with this thread when you did Einstein, whew, just in time.

[Artgathan]

In general if you need to impose restrictions on players to 'balance' a game, the game is inherently unbalanced. Suggesting that weight balancing will fix problems is the same as saying 'well if PPCs are unbalanced, we'll just make it so that a team can only bring 4 PPCs in their drop'. It doesn't fix the problem - it simply attempts to artificially reduce it.

If PGI creates better game modes (perhaps the objective based modes they've been hinting at) that create a need for different weight classes we'll see players automatically start bringing more balanced forces to the field. The problem is that in the current modes there is no need for medium battlemechs - they're not as fast as lights (so they're not great at capping) and they're not as well armed / armoured as assaults or heavies (so they're not great at fighting).

[Sybreed]

No, everyone picking an assault is a symptom of the bad balancing, not a cause. PGI fixes the bad balancing, perhaps people go less inclined to pick assaults all the time. BUT, I agree, there needs to be a tonnage limit.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

heavy mechs > assault mechs anyway

[Fate 6]

Reno Blade, on 16 June 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

The problem with that would still be the min-max of like 6 assaults and 6 lights instead of mostly medium weight classes on the field.
How do you "push" back the teams in mostly medium with some heavy/lights than only a very few assaults?
The lights can outrun any medium mech and go cap bases or swarm slow targets while the assaults just bring more firepower than med/heavy mechs.

I think this needs to be part of the system, but is not the only knob to tweak for a final solution.

If it would be something like BV (Battle Value) where you could have cheap mediums (some lights are even more expensive) and expensive assaults, then even with upcomming technology (like Clans) the balancing could be used.
Certain BV limits for certain modes to "force" lighter mech classes or lower tech (trial mechs with tech1 stock loadout) for the teams would also give diversity between the modes.

I think the best way to go about "BV" would be simply convert the mech into a CBill price. Unless we give each specific chassis and variant its own BV (which will be constantly changing according to meta), then we have to do a direct conversion of all weapons, armor, upgrades, etc. This would make mediums with STD engines really strong, lights with XLs and all upgrades would be valued like a medium, and Jagers with XLs would count almost like an assault.

Of course, I think XL engines would be overvalued in this system a bit due to their price. It's not perfect by any means, but at least it adapts to changes.

[Mrllamaface]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 June 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

This is a theory I've heard from other players, too.

But I disagree with it. If you want to have 50 % mediums or whatever, you need to force people to play certain mechs, regardless of whether they enjoy them or not. You might even force them to play mechs they don't even own.

What if I buy 8 assaults but no light, medium, or heavy? Damn me to run trial mechs in those matches, trial mechs we all know suck terribly? Force me to wait eternities for the Queue to get me a match?

I believe the only way you can get a "battletech-conformistic" mech distrubtion, or even just an "equally balanced" mech distribution without forcing people to play mechs they don't want to play would be to make sure that all mech weight classes and all mechs are equally viable and relevant for winning a match. It must be as rewarding to play a medium as it is to play a heavy or assault.

And the current meta isn't forcing people to play mechs they don't want to play?

[StandingCow]

What would people think if PGI tried implementing their own BV system? I know the original didn't work all that well, but it might be a good way for them to balance drop tonnage/firepower a bit?

[MustrumRidcully]

Mrllamaface, on 16 June 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

And the current meta isn't forcing people to play mechs they don't want to play?

It is.

But the solution, to force people to play different mechs, is not an improvement. You still force players to do something they don't want to. It might even be worse - because you force them to run gimped mechs against their will. At least when you force them into a Gauss Boat or a PPC boat, they can be effective.

Fix the game balance (a difficult and challenging task, to be sure), and players have a choice. If they sitll want all to play Heavies and Assaults, so be it. But if the balance is right, your medium will still be as useful and contributing to the team as the other mechs, even if you're only in the 1 out of 8 or 1 out of 12 bracket of people that prefer mediums.

[MaddMaxx]

Vassago Rain, on 16 June 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

You make mediums good.

And how exactly does that get accomplished without directly overshadowing the Mechs in the tier above..