25 replies to this topic

[ExtremeA79]

I am not sure if people will agree or not, but I think Jump Jets should be alot like they were in Mechwarrior Living Legends. They best represented Jump Jets in canon, and they were balanced too.
I also think that the JJ shake should be reduced or removed completely.

[Nauht]

What were they like in LL? Not everyone's played that.

Besides this is not LL.

[General Taskeen]

Nauht, he is referring to this:



They balanced the 'poptart,' while at the same time made them incredibly fun to use with more tactical use then just 'Hover' or 'Poptart' as they are in MWO. The MW:LL programmer that designed them deserves a medal.

That game is also where the idea of the jump 'shake' originates from, but instead of jittering the crosshair like crazy, they made the cockpit itself shake while making the crosshair pull upwards, simulating the pilot being forced down into their seat by G's.

Basically they knew that in order to reduce the effectiveness of one tactic, they needed to improve JJ mobility and evasion overall to enhance their utility in a Mech Warrior game. The video details every type of use.

Edited by General Taskeen, 17 June 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Zyllos]

This would really make mechs that are missing Jump Jets or not capable of Jump Jets way less maneuverable.

Taking Living Legends Jump Jet system, you would need to balance out how much different is 1x 0.5t JJ vs 1x 1.0t JJ vs 1x 2.0t JJ and get the balance between burn time and thrust.

But, regardless of that, I think these Jump Jets I could get myself into. They are more "bursty" than MWOs current system.

***EDIT: The jump jet shake must stay in or the return of the poptart will be around. Heck, you can even see in the video that the jump jets make the ridicule shake.***

Edited by Zyllos, 17 June 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[HighlandCoo]

Jump jets are fine.

[Signal27]

General Taskeen, on 17 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Nauht, he is referring to this:

Thanks for sharing that. It helped me vote in this poll.

I think the key thing here is to balance mechs with jump jets versus mechs without jump jets. You want to open up the third dimension of movement to players, but not make that movement so good that putting jump jets on your mech is pretty much mandatory in order to be competitive. And, frankly, watching that video, I see something very awesome in action - something so awesome, I asked myself "why would I not​ take jump jets on all my mechs? Why would I even bother to buy mechs that can't mount jump jets on them at all?"

[El Bandito]

No, and no.

[cyberFluke]

After voting, I see I don't really need to explain how crap an idea this is, not to mention this is like the N^th time I've seen the same "idea" trotted out. I have no problem getting places with my jumpjets, my maneuverability is enhanced a lot as it is.

No, you're not getting poptarting back as easy as it was. No, you're not making all non-jump mechs useless. Idea bad, please, move on.

[Nauht]

General Taskeen, on 17 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Nauht, he is referring to this:



They balanced the 'poptart,' while at the same time made them incredibly fun to use with more tactical use then just 'Hover' or 'Poptart' as they are in MWO. The MW:LL programmer that designed them deserves a medal.

That game is also where the idea of the jump 'shake' originates from, but instead of jittering the crosshair like crazy, they made the cockpit itself shake while making the crosshair pull upwards, simulating the pilot being forced down into their seat by G's.

Basically they knew that in order to reduce the effectiveness of one tactic, they needed to improve JJ mobility and evasion overall to enhance their utility in a Mech Warrior game. The video details every type of use.

Those mechs looklike they weigh next to nothing. At least in MWO you get a sense of weight as you move up. We're talking about tens of tonnes here. Even propelling a human upwards isn't as quick.

Although I can't really complain as the acceleration/deceleration of tens of tonnes in MWO has been handled really simplistically too so why not have insta-JJ anyway.

[General Taskeen]

Signal27, on 17 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Thanks for sharing that. It helped me vote in this poll.
"why would I not​ take jump jets on all my mechs? Why would I even bother to buy mechs that can't mount jump jets on them at all?"

JJ's also make the Mech 'stop in place after they land. They don't just suddenly take off with ease as soon they land. Kind of simulates the legs absorbing the land, then readjusting.

Keep in mind that JJ's are balanced by several other factors that the video does not explain. A full jump that expends all your fuel will raise your heat to nearly half of your threshold, which reduces the amount of firepower you can output mid-jump or when landing. AND Jump Jet Fuel Recharge is reduced, so it does not began to recharge until a little bit after landing. In other words, tactical mobility is increased, but jump jet frequency is far reduced. I.E., the perfect balancing measure.

I've tested the game myself, so I am willing to speak the full information of what they do from the last produced version of MW:LL. Most people do not bother to test things before giving their judgement. In all aspects, they are simply balanced better after seeing how they were programmed.

They are leagues better than MWO. So in fact, MWO JJ's are not "fine" as some people like to say, they are very lackluster. Most people have a very knee-jerk negative reaction to MW:LL anyways, when in fact, MWO takes ideas from MW:LL. I'm sure that twists some people's pantaloons. And when people consider that the huge amount of complaining about JJ's in MWO, then it should be no wonder why that happened, since they have very little types of use in the first place.

Whether people say "no' or not, I guarantee PGI will toy with this idea of JJ improvement or revamp as they already have hinted at. It just won't happen all at once considering how long changes occur.

Nauht, on 17 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Those mechs looklike they weigh next to nothing. At least in MWO you get a sense of weight as you move up. We're talking about tens of tonnes here. Even propelling a human upwards isn't as quick.

We're also talking about Battle Tech space magic here. There is no realism. Even other Mech titles had more 'simmy' features than this game.

Edited by General Taskeen, 17 June 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

JJ shake was a huge boon to the game. It will be scaled back a bit by weight class as new patches go live, so expect to see some quality of life improvements for light and medium jumpers especially, but the mechanics are both sound and effective.

I would, however, like JJ behavior to be changed a bit. They should have a lot of initial acceleration up to the height determined by your number of JJs (using maybe half your fuel very fast), and the remaining fuel should be useful primarily for feathering your descent to prevent leg damage and to aim your landing point along your line of motion a bit more carefully (and can be used to rotate your mech's legs while in flight). When you fire your JJs, you should feel a veritable kick in your pants as your mech gets thrown into the air by flash-heated reaction mass (water) being explosively expelled from giant vents pointed downward.

[Zyllos]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 17 June 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

JJ shake was a huge boon to the game. It will be scaled back a bit by weight class as new patches go live, so expect to see some quality of life improvements for light and medium jumpers especially, but the mechanics are both sound and effective.

I would, however, like JJ behavior to be changed a bit. They should have a lot of initial acceleration up to the height determined by your number of JJs (using maybe half your fuel very fast), and the remaining fuel should be useful primarily for feathering your descent to prevent leg damage and to aim your landing point along your line of motion a bit more carefully (and can be used to rotate your mech's legs while in flight). When you fire your JJs, you should feel a veritable kick in your pants as your mech gets thrown into the air by flash-heated reaction mass (water) being explosively expelled from giant vents pointed downward.

Technically, they already do this. It's just the initial burst is extremely short.

But I do agree that jump jets should have that powerful initial burst to get height or distance while continued use it used for controlling the mech.

I think the hardest balancing factor is how to produce the power and jump time around a # of jump jets.

[KrazedOmega]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 17 June 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

I would, however, like JJ behavior to be changed a bit. They should have a lot of initial acceleration up to the height determined by your number of JJs (using maybe half your fuel very fast), and the remaining fuel should be useful primarily for feathering your descent to prevent leg damage and to aim your landing point along your line of motion a bit more carefully (and can be used to rotate your mech's legs while in flight). When you fire your JJs, you should feel a veritable kick in your pants as your mech gets thrown into the air by flash-heated reaction mass (water) being explosively expelled from giant vents pointed downward.

I totally agree. The initial burst needs to be a lot stronger to get you up to the proper height depending on the number of JJ's you have equipped. It's pretty sad that a Jenner with four JJ's has to drag its nose up any slight incline when trying to jump over something.

Take the tunnel entrance on Frozen City that's in C3 as an example. Almost any mech short of an assault should easily be able to pop up there with one burst of the JJ's without dragging its torso or legs up the side.

I'd be happy with more burst and a little less burn time.

[Soy]

Nauht, on 17 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

What were they like in LL? Not everyone's played that.

Besides this is not LL.

[Stoicblitzer]

while the JJs in that video look awesome, i don't think they fit in this game. something i did notice in that video was how much heat he generated when firing just a few lasers.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 17 June 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[Brilig]

I like the idea of being able to get more forward momentum out of jump jets.

I don't like how fast they make the mech go in those LL videos. A little faster than what we have now would be nice. I think part of the cannon around JJs are that they help bigger mechs keep up with lighter ones. I don't think vectoring isn't really necessary.

[ExtremeA79]

cyberFluke, on 17 June 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

After voting, I see I don't really need to explain how crap an idea this is, not to mention this is like the N^th time I've seen the same "idea" trotted out. I have no problem getting places with my jumpjets, my maneuverability is enhanced a lot as it is.

No, you're not getting poptarting back as easy as it was. No, you're not making all non-jump mechs useless. Idea bad, please, move on.

Play MWLL and see how much of a "problem" poptarters are. HINT!: they aren't.
Some popular ideas suggested here and even some implemented in MWO came from MWLL. (cough, JJ shake, cough cough)

cyberFluke, on 17 June 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

After voting, I see I don't really need to explain how crap an idea this is, not to mention this is like the N^th time I've seen the same "idea" trotted out. I have no problem getting places with my jumpjets, my maneuverability is enhanced a lot as it is.

No, you're not getting poptarting back as easy as it was. No, you're not making all non-jump mechs useless. Idea bad, please, move on.

Play MWLL and see how much of a "problem" poptarters are. HINT!: they aren't.
Some popular ideas suggested here and even some implemented in MWO came from MWLL. (cough, JJ shake, cough cough)

Nauht, on 17 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Those mechs looklike they weigh next to nothing. At least in MWO you get a sense of weight as you move up. We're talking about tens of tonnes here. Even propelling a human upwards isn't as quick.

Although I can't really complain as the acceleration/deceleration of tens of tonnes in MWO has been handled really simplistically too so why not have insta-JJ anyway.

In battletech, these mechs can jump any where from 90 meters, to hundreds of meters, many times taller than the mech itself.
This IS science fiction after all.

[Owlfeathers]

I love the mechanics and function of the MWLL jump jets (judging by the video), but at the same time they seem like they would be a bit too strong in MWO as it is now.

Perhaps a somewhat nerfed version with the same mechanics would be good?

P.S. Especially JJ vectoring. In no way does it make sense that when jets on your back change the direction they are facing, that you keep moving exactly as if they were pointing in the other direction.

[Captain Stiffy]

It makes a huge percentage of players sick as hell. People I know that played this game are quitting in droves because of it. There's nobody to talk to about it anymore and no reason to make myself ill.

What a brainless, ******** forum fanboi thing to do. Dumbass devs.

[ExtremeA79]

Captain Stiffy, on 18 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

It makes a huge percentage of players sick as hell. People I know that played this game are quitting in droves because of it. There's nobody to talk to about it anymore and no reason to make myself ill.

What a brainless, ******** forum fanboi thing to do. Dumbass devs.

LOL, I have been playing it and still play it from time to time and no one is quitting the game because of getting sick. The only reason of the low pop count is that people are A: getting bored, or B: playing MWO as MWLL is no longer getting updated.