53 replies to this topic

[OmniJackal]

I (like everyone else and their mom) am looking forward to the release of the vaunted Madcat/Timberwolf. But lately as I play the game more I realize just how bad of a mech it is going to be due to the major difference between tabletop and MWO. The difference is in the pinpoint accuracy of weapons.

Currently my favorite mech in the game is still the Catapult. I love their balance and versatility. From a well rounded but very quick heavy to a lumbering missile boat to a gausscat or twin shotgun to the face brawler, this mech can do it all. But lately I've found myself resenting it because it has exactly zero survivability. I have dropped the XL300s from two of my cats in favor of S255/260s to increase my chances of surviving an engagement but I have noticed almost no difference in the amount of hits I can take.

The problem with my beloved cats is that the entire mech is pretty much one gigantic center torso. People have learned this and don't even bother shooting at the arms. With my C1 that still retains its XL engine, I am dying more to being cored or 1 shot in the cockpit than I am to losing my XL engine due to right or left torso damage. As a matter of fact I have been getting head shot way way too much lately. I've tried adjusting my tactics and swerving my torso as I've seen others do but it's not helping. On the other cats with standard engines, without fail, every single match, I am cored in a matter of seconds even with maxed armor. I sometimes wonder why this mech has right and left torsos at all.

I've seen the Stalker suffer from the exact same vulnerability. Having never really tested the Atlas or Highlander, I can say that the Stalker's survivability still seems lower as I die very quickly in it and am able to kill them quicker than other assault mechs. It suffers from the same issue of pretty much being just a gigantic center torso.

Now my point is is that the Madcat is really no different than the Catapult or Stalker from a design standpoint. It is a gigantic center torso except with arms added. Its cockpit is as big or bigger than a Catapult's and I'm thinking the Vulture will suffer the same issue when it is released. I don't know how to balance this but for having such a huge weak spot, the Catapult certainly doesn't get any benefits to offset it. They are so easy to destroy compared to other heavies. Cataphracts and Dragons are pretty good at soaking up damage but not the Catapult.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you are a huge fan of the Madcat then you might want to pick up some Catapults and play them and get used to getting your *** handed to you in a matter of seconds because it is going to happen a lot. With the advantages already present with clan tech, I can't imagine PGI giving the Madcat a smaller torso or cockpit than it needs to have and still look like/be a Madcat. The only thing I can think of to balance the thing and give it the same survivability of other heavies is to get rid of the right and left torsos and add the armor to the center torso because that's really all this thing is. As for the cockpit, nothing will save you even if you're trotting along at 85kph. It just happens too often.

(tried to make an intelligent rant that wasn't offensive or whiney. if anyone has tips that would help me survive better I would gladly try them out. I am not the best player around but I have had more than a few 900+ dmg or 6+ kill matches so I am by no means a dunce when it comes to tactics)

[El Bandito]

There is no proof what so ever that PGI will keep the Timberwolf's cockpit as large as it is, and reduce it instead, to something closer to MW4 where it had smaller cockpit profile. Mad Dog has very tiny cockpit, I don't know why you even brought that mech up.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 June 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Pater Mors]

I don't care if I get one shotted every time I get in the thing by a Spider with an MG. I will still ride it in to battle every. single. time. with Ride Of The Valkyries blaring at 100% volume.

[Diomed]

Clan XL engines do not extend into the side torsos like IS ones do.

[El Bandito]

Diomed, on 17 June 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Clan XL engines do not extend into the side torsos like IS ones do.

Good call, I edited it. You know what that means? DUAL UAC20 instead of the Dual machineguns!

Birth of the new Boomcat.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 June 2013 - 07:40 PM.

[xDeityx]

Diomed, on 17 June 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Clan XL engines do not extend into the side torsos like IS ones do.

If I'm remembering correctly I thought Clan XL engines did extend to the side torsos, but they were just 1 critical shy of what you would need to destroy the 'mech. So you still had engine components in the side torsos but could survive getting a side torso destroyed.

[OmniJackal]

So no tips then about surviving better? It is what it is?

[DocBach]

xDeityx, on 17 June 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

If I'm remembering correctly I thought Clan XL engines did extend to the side torsos, but they were just 1 critical shy of what you would need to destroy the 'mech. So you still had engine components in the side torsos but could survive getting a side torso destroyed.

this is correct - Clan XL engines can survive a side torso destruction.

[Nauht]

Every mech has a CT and side torsos. And in every mech the CT is the easiest to hit.
You should be thankful that your side torsos are so hard small in comparison. Try playing an Awesome or Jager and see your side torsos bejng blown off by one alpha.

Regardless I'm sure PGI wont f**k up one of the most iconic mechs in the BT universe and probably one of the most popular in MWO when it's released. Then again I'm hoping they do make it semi-weak, if only to weed out the chaff to leave the ones that truly want to pilot this mech.

[OmniJackal]

Nauht, on 17 June 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Every mech has a CT and side torsos. And in every mech the CT is the easiest to hit.
You should be thankful that your side torsos are so hard small in comparison. Try playing an Awesome or Jager and see your side torsos bejng blown off by one alpha.

Regardless I'm sure PGI wont f**k up one of the most iconic mechs in the BT universe and probably one of the most popular in MWO when it's released. Then again I'm hoping they do make it semi-weak, if only to weed out the chaff to leave the ones that truly want to pilot this mech.

This might reflect poorly on me but part of the reason I select a mech to pilot is due to looks. I am very fond of "chicken walkers" with the reverse joint knee. Ravens, cats, Stalkers etc... For me it isn't enough to blow people up but I want to look good (at least my definition of good) doing it.

After reading the other 7 page thread about the head hitbox (sorry I didn't use the search function before making this thread) I realize that I don't play my cat as a pure support mech. I do mainly support assault mechs but I think too often that I get overzealous and run out front to get a kill. In these cases if an Atlas has a choice to shoot the assault mech I'm supporting or take my dps out of the equation then he is obviously going to primary me. So my trouble with this mech is indeed inherent in my tactics alone. There is no avoiding the headshots that happen oh so often but if I play a little more cautiously then maybe I can stay on the field longer. I just REALLY like getting up close and shotgunning people's faces with my K2.

Thanks for not flaming me guys.

Edited by OmniJackal, 17 June 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[HighlandCoo]

But... every mech has a center torso? The only mech I can think of that has any kind of "bonus" in this regard is the centurion with a notoriously narrow CT.

I can't help but think about this is general gaming terms... if we had a way to see a heatmap of where hits land in ANY FPS I would bet my last penny you would see the majority of hits landing in the CENTER of the target.

Personally Id like to see bigger bonuses for shooting out components, rather than getting the kill. It's not imaginative I know. But it could alleviate some of the issues with this. Perhaps when(if) the achievements system comes in there will be a drop-off of this sort of thing.

[OneEyed Jack]

DocBach, on 17 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

this is correct - Clan XL engines can survive a side torso destruction.

More precisely, they can survive a single side torso destruction.

@OP That's pretty much why Cats are considered to be pretty much entirely safe to run XL. They rarely die to ST destruction without being blasted to crap first, even with XL. In fact, it's always been largely considered a strength, since it allows that freedom to gain the tonnage offered by XL. As to the cockpit, they've already announced it's being reduced in size. I believe they mentioned it being made comparable to the Cataphract, which will make it one of the least-hit heads in the game.

[Keifomofutu]

Wow you gotta be one of the worst assault pilots I've ever seen if you think stalker suffers from CT issues. It's got a popsicle stick for a CT. So long as you don't bring an XL engine you are basically guaranteed to lose a side torso before CT even without torso twisting. If you torso twist you'll probably lose both side torsos before the CT. You better get that atlas and highlander to see what a CT vulnerability REALLY is. Or if you are feeling masochistic get a Dragon.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 17 June 2013 - 08:03 PM.

[Asmosis]

in one of the recent ask the dev's they said they were reviewing the catapult cockpit size, so it might get reduced to match other mechs.

[OmniJackal]

Keifomofutu, on 17 June 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Wow you gotta be one of the worst assault pilots I've ever seen if you think stalker suffers from CT issues. It's got a popsicle stick for a CT. So long as you don't bring an XL engine you are basically guaranteed to lose a side torso before CT even without torso twisting. If you torso twist you'll probably lose both side torsos before the CT. You better get that atlas and highlander to see what a CT vulnerability REALLY is. Or if you are feeling masochistic get a Dragon.

Guess I spoke too soon when I thanked everyone for not flaming me.

I prefer Catapults. They're all I have. I just got my first assault mechs (Stalkers) a week ago. But thanks for the criticism.

[Ningyo]

They really need to stop the massive swings of overcorrection. Sure it is too big, make it smaller, but not suddenly one of the smallest. Go to average first.

And yes for running an XL engine catapults small side torsos are excellent which is a major strength. And stalkers are the opposite of what you said, they have huge side torsos which are always getting destroyed, making an XL engine very risky.

[OmniJackal]

Ningyo, on 17 June 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

They really need to stop the massive swings of overcorrection. Sure it is too big, make it smaller, but not suddenly one of the smallest. Go to average first.

And yes for running an XL engine catapults small side torsos are excellent which is a major strength. And stalkers are the opposite of what you said, they have huge side torsos which are always getting destroyed, making an XL engine very risky.

That must be how my 6ppc stalker is getting killed then. It is the only of the 3 stalkers I have running an XL. I guess when I die in it I just assume it's the CT going due to my experience in the cats. I'll pay more attention next time I run it. Obviously as a ppc boat I stay at long range which is how I justify running the XL.

[Nauht]

OmniJackal, on 17 June 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

That must be how my 6ppc stalker is getting killed then. It is the only of the 3 stalkers I have running an XL. I guess when I die in it I just assume it's the CT going due to my experience in the cats. I'll pay more attention next time I run it. Obviously as a ppc boat I stay at long range which is how I justify running the XL.

Which would be totally fine if the current meta is the high alpha sniper build. You're fielding a 6 ppc stalker and so's the other guy.

[OmniJackal]

Nauht, on 17 June 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Which would be totally fine if the current meta is the high alpha sniper build. You're fielding a 6 ppc stalker and so's the other guy.

Agreed. I take no issue with this or boating of any kind because doing so ensures a vulnerability elsewhere that can be exploited. I just don't like the vulnerability of cats when not boating. I run a C1 with 2x LL, 2x ML, 2x SRM6 (sometimes swap the LL for ER PPC and sometimes swap the SRM for LRM10), C4 with 2x ML, 2x LRM15+art, 2x SSRM2, and K2 with 2x LB10x, 4x ML. No boating on any of them but all die as if I'd given up all my armor just to boat. I'll learn.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Even if the MC's head is small, it's still on or near the nose, which makes it vulnerable. I don't see PGI changing it that radically. The side torsos will likely be far more vulnerable than the Catapult's, too, because of the "ear" missile pods, though those could be redesigned with a far more military profile without eliminating the distinctive silhouette. The MC will likely have a huge CT as well.

Clan XLs put 2 critical slots in each side torso rather than 3, and since 3 is an engine kill it saves the life of the mech so long as only one side torso gets blown out. If both do then it still dies.