124 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

And to explain.

Mech brings an LRM 20.

Is the LRM 20 balanced around the LRM20 by itself.

Or is the LRM 20 balanced having a TAG, Adv. Decay, Artemis, BAP and your opponents having anywhere from 1 to 8 ECM/AMS. Also is it balanced against a mech that moves 55kph or a mech that moves 150kph (you can't lead LRM's like you do projectiles, and it misses light mechs almost entirely).

It's all so convoluted. And this is just one weapon system.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 19 June 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Jestun]

I use both LRMs and AMS, personally I like the buff.

I've seen big salvos be entirely stopped by AMS if they are forced to come in waves (due to a lack of missile tubes on the LRM mech) but generally it's better than before but far from 100% efficient.


Most of the examples in this thread have been things like a single LRM0 vs. 2 mechs with AMS. Well... sure you'll do bad with barely any missiles vs. multiple missile counters...

[Sybreed]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 June 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

And to explain.

Mech brings an LRM 20.

Is the LRM 20 balanced around the LRM20 by itself.

Or is the LRM 20 balanced having a TAG, Adv. Decay, Artemis, BAP and your opponents having anywhere from 1 to 8 ECM/AMS. Also is it balanced against a mech that moves 55kph or a mech that moves 150kph (you can't lead LRM's like you do projectiles, and it misses light mechs almost entirely).

It's all so convoluted. And this is just one weapon system.

changing the subject a bit, I realized that firing LRMs on a mech moving perpendicularly to you is completely useless as they dont even seem to hit.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sybreed, on 19 June 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

changing the subject a bit, I realized that firing LRMs on a mech moving perpendicularly to you is completely useless as they dont even seem to hit.

Yup it's a major bugs that lights are more able to take advantage of.

It's due to the extreme downward arc of the flight path once it reaches the mech.

And HSR is not turned on for LRM's as far as I know.

I literally dropped like 10 volley's of 45 LRM's into a hunchback moving perpendicularly in LOS at 500m and did like 10% damage spread all over him.

You can't even begin to balance LRM's right now because they have some major bugs (Artemis always on is a beneficial bug right now).

[Dirus Nigh]

Sir Wulfrick, on 18 June 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I can assure you that on occasion when I'm forced to cross open terrain in my 48.5Kmh Atlas that the AMS is certainly not overly effective.

Are you sure that it was AMS that was taking down your LRM volleys and not terrain masking or loss of lock?

No its the AMS. They gave it a damage buff. A single AMS will destroy LRM flights of 5-15. Some times a 15 will get 1-3 missiles to hit the target. One on one a single AMS system will take out enough missiles to defend against an LRM20 effectively. A hand full of missiles may get through, but it will be marginal damage at best. A single ton of AMS ammo can chew through about 2-2.5 tons of ammo for an LRM20. If two flights of 20 LRMs are incoming then 10-12 missiles might get through. However there are factores that will change this.

The distance a flight of LRMs has to travel the more time the AMS has to track and shoot down missiles. At about 500m out an LRM20 flgiht will be taken out, LRM 5-15s are a not issue for the target.

The more flights are inbound the greater the chance LRMs will do damage to the target. The AMS can be overwhelmed. The faster it can cut through a flight of missiles the faster it can target another flight. It seems that LRMs that are staggered when fired are targeted as separate flights. An LRM that is fired in parts such as an LRM 20 that is fired out of 10 tube launcher, will have a greater chance of being taken out then one firing it's missiles in one flight.

AMS is also able to shoot down streak missiles. Fire off a streak at over 100m and both missiles will be shot down.

A mech like the atlas K that has two AMS will be unaffected by LRM fire from any mech carrying the equivalent of three LRM15s or less. So long as the AMS has ammunition.

If there is more than one mech with AMS their defense capabilities over lap. Get four AMS together and it's possible that a pair of dedicated LRM boats will be countered effectively. It will come down to who has more ammunition, AMS, or the LRMs.

There are problems with AMS. They target LRM missiles out of line of sight. For example, if I am behind a tall building and LRMs are on the other side my AMS will target them and fire. The LRMs would not be hit because the building is blocking the AMS. The same as if Im in a cave. It is a fix the devs need to work on.

[Ransack]

eh, I normally stick at least one LRM 10 on a mech so that I can reach out and touch a runner. I think that AMS is in no way OP. A group of them? Hell yes! The AMS system was never intended to cover your teammates, only your mech. PGI made it an AoE, no big deal, it takes and runs out of ammo. Most people put 1 ton per AMS. That's 1000 rounds and dry. If it only took one shot per missle that might be a problem, but it takes more.

The fact that the thing goes off at any missile in the vicinity is a drawback of its own. It's like sending up a signal flare if you are stealthing. It shoots at missiles that are not a threat and you run out of ammo at the darndest times (at least I do).

The only change that I would like to see is to make them generate heat. Even these spitball shooting machine guns get hot, why not AMS?

Edited by Ransack, 19 June 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Riptor]

This whole mess wouldnt exist if LRMs would have finaly be implemented the way they are on table top.

A Direct fire weapon with no lockon and the actuall speed of a missle.. not that slow mo (compared to the speed of real missles) crap we have now.

Normal LRM where NEVER guided. Heck even the semi-guided LRMs where only that.. semi guided and gave you a bonus on the table to see how many missles of a swarm actually hit the enemy mech.

The whole problem stems from the fact that LRMs are lockon weapons instead of a direct fire weapon with the OPTION of firing indirect (note that indirect fire does not mean homing or lockon)

[Ransack]

Quote

There are problems with AMS. They target LRM missiles out of line of sight. For example, if I am behind a tall building and LRMs are on the other side my AMS will target them and fire. The LRMs would not be hit because the building is blocking the AMS. The same as if Im in a cave. It is a fix the devs need to work on.

They have been" looking at" fixing that since closed beta. It ain't happening. To fix that, it would have to lose its AoE, then no more covering friendly mechs, then the forums implode with LRMpocalypse threads.

[One Medic Army]

Dirus Nigh, on 19 June 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

No its the AMS. They gave it a damage buff. A single AMS will destroy LRM flights of 5-15. Some times a 15 will get 1-3 missiles to hit the target. One on one a single AMS system will take out enough missiles to defend against an LRM20 effectively. A hand full of missiles may get through, but it will be marginal damage at best. A single ton of AMS ammo can chew through about 2-2.5 tons of ammo for an LRM20. If two flights of 20 LRMs are incoming then 10-12 missiles might get through. However there are factores that will change this.

The distance a flight of LRMs has to travel the more time the AMS has to track and shoot down missiles. At about 500m out an LRM20 flgiht will be taken out, LRM 5-15s are a not issue for the target.

The more flights are inbound the greater the chance LRMs will do damage to the target. The AMS can be overwhelmed. The faster it can cut through a flight of missiles the faster it can target another flight. It seems that LRMs that are staggered when fired are targeted as separate flights. An LRM that is fired in parts such as an LRM 20 that is fired out of 10 tube launcher, will have a greater chance of being taken out then one firing it's missiles in one flight.

AMS is also able to shoot down streak missiles. Fire off a streak at over 100m and both missiles will be shot down.

A mech like the atlas K that has two AMS will be unaffected by LRM fire from any mech carrying the equivalent of three LRM15s or less. So long as the AMS has ammunition.

If there is more than one mech with AMS their defense capabilities over lap. Get four AMS together and it's possible that a pair of dedicated LRM boats will be countered effectively. It will come down to who has more ammunition, AMS, or the LRMs.

There are problems with AMS. They target LRM missiles out of line of sight. For example, if I am behind a tall building and LRMs are on the other side my AMS will target them and fire. The LRMs would not be hit because the building is blocking the AMS. The same as if Im in a cave. It is a fix the devs need to work on.

Nah.
It deals a specific DPS with a specific range and missiles have a specific amount of HP.
The number of missiles a single AMS will kill (on the targeted mech) will vary by maybe +/- 1 missile.

Last I checked the number was roughly 6 missiles per voley per AMS.

Of course, this does have an increased effect on LRMs which fire in multiple volleys due to tube restrictions, but I can safely say that there is just about no way for 2 AMS to kill a 3xLRM15volley if it's alpha'd.

Edited by One Medic Army, 19 June 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

One Medic Army, on 19 June 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Nah.
It deals a specific DPS with a specific range and missiles have a specific amount of HP.
The number of missiles a single AMS will kill (on the targeted mech) will vary by maybe +/- 1 missile.

Last I checked the number was roughly 6 missiles per voley per AMS.

Of course, this does have an increased effect on LRMs which fire in multiple volleys due to tube restrictions, but I can safely say that there is just about no way for 2 AMS to kill a 3xLRM15volley if it's alpha'd.

This also seems to differ depending on whether the AMS is attacking missiles fired at your or at a teammate.

[Vodrin Thales]

One Medic Army, on 19 June 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Nah.
It deals a specific DPS with a specific range and missiles have a specific amount of HP.
The number of missiles a single AMS will kill (on the targeted mech) will vary by maybe +/- 1 missile.

Last I checked the number was roughly 6 missiles per voley per AMS.

Of course, this does have an increased effect on LRMs which fire in multiple volleys due to tube restrictions, but I can safely say that there is just about no way for 2 AMS to kill a 3xLRM15volley if it's alpha'd.

This is correct. Best case is knocking out about 7 missiles.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

This also seems to differ depending on whether the AMS is attacking missiles fired at your or at a teammate.

Not really. AMS will prioritize firing on missiles targeted on you, but the amount of missiles killed does not really change.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 19 June 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Sybreed]

Vodrin Thales, on 19 June 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

This is correct. Best case is knocking out about 7 missiles.

so, when I said that 2 AMS knocked out half of my LRM 30 volley, I wasn't so far off.

Edited by Sybreed, 19 June 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Jman5]

zazz0000, on 18 June 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

A single ton carries you through a match too well, I've never had to toggle AMS off to conserve it.
Maybe like 250/ton? So that sooner or later you can soften up those defenses?

You couldn't toggle AMS off even if you wanted to because that toggle does not exist.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Vodrin Thales, on 19 June 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Not really. AMS will prioritize firing on missiles targeted on you, but the amount of missiles killed does not really change.

Let me ask you this, assuming a mech is within range to shoot down missiles, moving along the same route as the volley, thus staying near it for a longer period than a mech who is stationary waiting for missiles to hit, why wouldn't it shoot down 2-3 extra missiles?

Also for instance, Highlander volley. 35 missiles + 10 missiles. 2 AMS shoots down 14 from the first, and all 10 from the second.

That's more than 50% of the missiles shot down from 3 tons of gear with no actual input necessary from the user.

And at the same time, the target mech is moving perpendicular to the fired volley causing another 10-15 missiles to miss.

Is that what we'd call working as intended?

[One Medic Army]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 June 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Let me ask you this, assuming a mech is within range to shoot down missiles, moving along the same route as the volley, thus staying near it for a longer period than a mech who is stationary waiting for missiles to hit, why wouldn't it shoot down 2-3 extra missiles?

Also for instance, Highlander volley. 35 missiles + 10 missiles. 2 AMS shoots down 14 from the first, and all 10 from the second.

That's more than 50% of the missiles shot down from 3 tons of gear with no actual input necessary from the user.

And at the same time, the target mech is moving perpendicular to the fired volley causing another 10-15 missiles to miss.

Is that what we'd call working as intended?

The fastest mech in the game is 150kph roughly.
Missiles move at 120m/s, which is 432 kph.
The speed difference means that it'd take quite a fast mech running under the volley to have much of an increased effect.

As to the highlander, if you want bigger+more effective volleys pick a chassis with more tubes.

Edited by One Medic Army, 19 June 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

One Medic Army, on 19 June 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

The fastest mech in the game is 150kph roughly.
Missiles move at 120m/s, which is 432 kph.
The speed difference means that it'd take quite a fast mech running under the volley to have much of an increased effect.

As to the highlander, if you want bigger+more effective volleys pick a chassis with more tubes.

As someone who runs LRM's pretty much every match, AMS sure as heck seems to be eatting up more than you guys are asserting it does. But I'll let that argument go for now.

SO.

Now we are saying to be a mech that uses LRM's, I need to not only use BAP, Adv. Decay, TAG, and Artemis. I also am locked into only specific chassis as well?

So now not only are we balancing LRM's around all the extra pieces of gear and 2 counters. We are now balancing them against each individual chassis?

And it's any wonder why this game's balance is so messed up.

(By the way that balancing against chassis thing is not just an LRM issue).

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 19 June 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

A single AMS can knock down 6-8 missiles usually. A single LRM/10 can definately get a few missiles through a single AMS because I have seen it happen against my AMS equiped mechs time and time again.

What people are seeing isn't a single AMS taking out the missiles, it is usually 3-4 AMS taking out the missiles.

Also when using LRMs, I don't really worry about AMS, I worry about ECM.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 19 June 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 June 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

As someone who runs LRM's pretty much every match, AMS sure as heck seems to be eatting up more than you guys are asserting it does. But I'll let that argument go for now.

SO.

Now we are saying to be a mech that uses LRM's, I need to not only use BAP, Adv. Decay, TAG, and Artemis. I also am locked into only specific chassis as well?

So now not only are we balancing LRM's around all the extra pieces of gear and 2 counters. We are now balancing them against each individual chassis?

And it's any wonder why this game's balance is so messed up.

(By the way that balancing against chassis thing is not just an LRM issue).

It's more that if you want to boat LRMs, or use LRMs as a primary weapon, you should pick a suitable chassis for it.
Same way people use the Stalker for PPCs rather than the Atlas or the Awesome.
Same way people use the Jager for a ballistic boat rather than the Hunchback-G.

Oh, and I'm currently running a C4: 2xALRM20, BAP, no TAG, no Decay, no dedicated spotter mech. 2x SSRM 2xML for backups. When I'm not in a quickdraw that is.

I agree that smaller launchers should be viable, and not boating should be viable, however that's not the same as saying that all chassis should be suitable as boats.

Edited by One Medic Army, 19 June 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Victor Morson]

I think if they tone down AMS range, not damage, it'll fix this. It'll make allied 'mechs less able to intercept flights of missiles, instead turning the AMS's attention at the final part of their "dive."

In fact, I'd take an even greater AMS damage buff to compensate. The biggest issue is that all the 'mechs will shoot at missiles in flight, not diving.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

One Medic Army, on 19 June 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Same way people use the Stalker for PPCs rather than the Atlas or the Awesome.

That about sums up this game to me. (Sorry to pull that one part out of your post like that, I realize it's a bit of a d*ck move, but i'm heading home)