49 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Pater Mors, on 18 June 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Still, without experiencing either I am not in much of a place to give my thoughts on a comparison on the two systems. However, I can tell you, that from what you've described there WoT would likely not appeal to me at all. I don't come here to spend time playing 'economy manager' in the Mechlab.

The way that sort of R&R system is supposed to work, the way WoT does it, and the way Star Conflict does it, is that there is a running cost as well as an initial purchase cost. What this does is make an Atlas actually more expensive than a Hunchback, as opposed to requiring a higher outlay in initial terms in a game where you can't fail to earn enough to buy it. It's basically an offset for their higher earning potential. It's not supposed to reach a point where the average player is regularly loosing money when dropping in an Assault mech.

[Pater Mors]

Sybreed, on 18 June 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

it's nothing like that. You get destroyed, go in garage, hit repair, done. It's almost impossible that you lose money unless you fired your 80 shells or that you fire gold all the time.

You sound a bit like someone very difficult to please

Not at all. Just don't penalize me for losing in a free-to-play game beyond substantially reduced income. If I suddenly can't use one of my Tanks because I don't have the money to repair it, I'm instantly bored. It means I have to have some sort of 'income tank' that's easy to make money with but boring or cheesy to play so that I can have a constant income to play the Tanks that I want to actually play. Then, put the regular old grind in on top of that system and you've lost me entirely.

I no longer get to game anywhere near as much as I want and I don't have the time or inclination to put effort into that kind of system, especially in a PvP setting. Single player is a completely different story. I know for a fact there are a large number of gamers who feel the same. You only have to open any R&R thread on these forums to see that.

Edited by Pater Mors, 18 June 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Sybreed]

Pater Mors, on 18 June 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Not at all. Just don't penalize me for losing in a free-to-play game beyond substantially reduced income. If I suddenly can't use one of my Tanks because I don't have the money to repair it, I'm instantly bored. It means I have to have some sort of 'income tank' that's easy to make money with but boring or cheesy to play so that I can have a constant income to play the Tanks that I want to actually play. Then, put the regular old grind in on top of that system and you've lost me entirely.

I no longer get to game anywhere near as much as I want and I don't have the time or inclination to put effort into that kind of system, especially in a PvP setting. Single player is a completely different story. I know for a fact there are a large number of gamers who feel the same. You only have to open any R&R thread on these forums to see that.

okay, I get ya and you make a good point. I still think R&R added something nice to MWO. I'm someone who never abused the system by coming in a match with a non 100% mech so my view is of course different, but I never thought about R&R that way. It forced me to use medium mechs more often and I didn't always used the best stuff and upgrades on all my mechs.

If you think of a way that it could be introduced again, please let me know, as I'm sure it would pretty much be the "safest, less penalizing" way and perhaps we could see that feature again.

In WoT, the main grind is XP as you need to research tanks before using them, so losing money isn't that much of a big deal. Perhaps that's why it feels less punitive there (you don't lose XP to get repairs).

[The Cheese]

Sybreed, on 18 June 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

I'm someone who never abused the system by coming in a match with a non 100% mech so my view is of course different, but I never thought about R&R that way.

You never needed to. You were getting premium level money back then. It was really only the non-premium players who suffered, and for those people, things sucked hard.

I'd love to see R+R come back, but it'd have to be changed quite a bit from the way they used to do things.

Edited by The Cheese, 18 June 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Sybreed, on 18 June 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

okay, I get ya and you make a good point. I still think R&R added something nice to MWO. I'm someone who never abused the system by coming in a match with a non 100% mech so my view is of course different, but I never thought about R&R that way. It forced me to use medium mechs more often and I didn't always used the best stuff and upgrades on all my mechs.

If you think of a way that it could be introduced again, please let me know, as I'm sure it would pretty much be the "safest, less penalizing" way and perhaps we could see that feature again.

In WoT, the main grind is XP as you need to research tanks before using them, so losing money isn't that much of a big deal. Perhaps that's why it feels less punitive there (you don't lose XP to get repairs).

I honestly don't think there is a way to implement R&R into this game as it currently stands without redesigning half of the game from the ground up, which is not going to happen. I've read almost all the R&R threads on the board and none of the proposed ideas solve the problem in my opinion.

I do understand the appeal of R&R. In a single player setting, I love it, but that's because I can take as much time as I want and can save and come back whenever. In PvP, I just want to play.

The only type of R&R I would support is a unit wide R&R where a small percentage of money from each player goes to the unit's pool of funds and is used to R&R once a week or something like that, but even then that's pretty arbitrary and really only just a fluffy c-bill sink.

[skullman86]

There are a few cases where canon appears to be more balanced than what we have, so I voted "other".

EDIT: I don't play BT, but I would rather they use all of the stuff they have available to them on paper rather than try to reinvent everything. They have ~30 years worth of data (trial and error, I imagine) to build off of and some of problems in this game can be traced back to them ignoring features present in table top or even the lore.

Edited by skullman86, 18 June 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Your definitions are wrong. FPS is about twitch gameplay, simulator is about "realistic" controls for the setting. The two aren't mutually exclusive, though in the case of Battletech in-universe realism would tend to slow combat down a good bit, thereby lessening the impact of twitch skills.

In my opinion PGI should be trying to make a simulator with good potential for e-sports. That mostly means it needs to be well-balanced and exciting to watch while still reflecting the setting's lore.

[El Bandito]

I want weapon convergence like in MW novels (must hold lock for accurate shots). I want heat penalty like in MW novels (targeting system getting fried, slowing of move speed etc...). I want collision and DFA from MW novels. I want melee fight like in the novels.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[Sybreed]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

I want weapon convergence like in MW novels (must hold lock for accurate shots). I want heat penalty like in MW novels (targeting system getting fried, slowing of move speed etc...). I want collision and DFA from MW novels. I want melee fight like in the novels.

how about a spider statue instead?

[Asmudius Heng]

On R&R.

What i thought it was supposed to do was encourage a sense of logistics where larger mechs are more difficult to field and so were higher tech mechs.

It never worked that way and I am not sure it ever will.

R&R felt like punishment in certain mechs/loadouts when you looked at your earnings even if you had a great match and you got pissed at the end.

It felt like you were being punished in game though if you had a lower tech smaller mech as you would get trounced by those with more tech and tonnage - but you got a small perk in your earnings but it didnt wipe off the horrible loss you just got handed.

It left both people feeling short changed - it was not FUN and it did not encourage player behaviour in ways that were good for the game.

Forget R&R - they need a system of logistics however so that we do not get top heavy matches all the time - and encouragements to run smaller mechs as well via better rewards.

I am hoping a dropship mode will force a sense of logistics and CW does the same but i am not really counting on PGI to be able to do this.

I do not want to crap on dedicated assault piltots either, some people just loving running a single weight class and thats cool, but you cannot let everyone do that all the time or the game loses a huge amount of variety.

Personal and factional logistics should come into it but not the ay R&R was done before.