22 replies to this topic

[Treblesaurus Rex]

I am unsure whether this has been brought up before and would rather not wade through stacks of topics to find it but I encountered a rather interesting situation today and was hoping for a bit of clarification.

Just to be clear before I start I will say this; I am a Raven 3L pilot and am quite familiar with how the module is supposed to work. In a nut shell if you are not within 180m of an enemy mech then they cannot lock you, though they can still shoot you, unless they are using lock only weapons such as streaks.

This, however, is the problem.

Was just on alpine with my streakapult (A1 Catapult, full streak launchers), and another pilot (Gelkyn if I remember correctly) had brought one too. we started at Gamma, and decided to head to Kappa together considering we arent useful in the long-range game, but could easily take down a rouge Light.

Got to Kappa, just as we were getting there a Raven 3L jumped us. No problem, he ran into 180m range, I targeted and locked him and let the Streaks fly. Sheared half his core within two volleys. Easy kill I thought to myself. Wrong.

Another Raven 3L came into jam range and instantly my lock was broken. My target was not broken, just the lock. Worse yet, I could not lock them up. Thinking it might just be some bug with my original target, I switched to the new Raven. Same thing. I could target him, see all his specs, damage, ect, but could not lock him at all. Ever. switch back to original Raven, rinse, repeat.

Long story short? Both of us got cored because we couldnt lock anything whatsoever. A Skirmish that should have resulted in two EASY kills for us, turned into us dying and then a lone Streak Trebuchet coming in after and dying the exact same way. 3-0 because no one could lock anything even though they were never farther than 50m from any of us.


Like I said at the start, I understand how the ECM is supposed to work, and I know its not supposed perma disrupt locks when you are within 180m. So what was going on here? This seems like an awfully suspicious issue with the ECM.

Also, I noticed that both of them were flicking their ECM on and off as fast as it would cycle on and off. Being a 3L pilot myself, I know there is no possible way that you can pilot, aim, fire cycle that and evade all at the same time. Even mechanically I know my computer (and as PGI puts it, the main market - most other peoples computers) would freak out if I attempted to do all of it at the same time. Is it possible that the pilots found an exploit and just got a key-stroke or macro program to constantly cycle the ECM for exactly this affect?

[General Taskeen]

Well here's the skinny.

PGI shouldn't have made them an on/off switch for weapons.

[soarra]

my ecm is on my mouse button so i toggle it disrupt/counter all the time. And two working togethor can totally perma ecm lock you

Edited by soarra, 18 June 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[Treblesaurus Rex]

So another words, Yes, it is a known exploit then.

I guess I should ask this then: Why would it have this effect? Like I said, I was never farther than 50m from them. Meaning that ECM shouldn't have had any effect on me whatsoever. Any reason why it should have been acting like this?

Also to note, the first guy was doing this before the second got there and it didnt have an effect on me; Not until the second Raven showed up

Edited by Treblesaurus Rex, 18 June 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[soarra]

how is that an exploit. its clicking a button

Thats what you get for running a streakapult with no ecm buddies

[Pater Mors]

Only one of you was running BAP.

BAP counters 1 ECM, so if two 3L's come along you're stilled screwed.

[Treblesaurus Rex]

That BAP was mine, but let me get this straight then, without a BAP you cant lock at all while within the influence of ECM?

If thats the case, I just learned something new. If that is the case though, I would very much appreciate confirmation of that.

Also soarra, it would be an exploit because it would have been an unintended and unforeseen side-effect of multiple ECM being within range of eachother.

Though if its because of the other pilot lacking a BAP module then thats different. This is what Im wanting to find out now

[Pater Mors]

Treblesaurus Rex, on 18 June 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

That BAP was mine, but let me get this straight then, without a BAP you cant lock at all while within the influence of ECM?

If thats the case, I just learned something new. If that is the case though, I would very much appreciate confirmation of that.

Also soarra, it would be an exploit because it would have been an unintended and unforeseen side-effect of multiple ECM being within range of eachother.

Though if its because of the other pilot lacking a BAP module then thats different. This is what Im wanting to find out now

Correct. There is a tiny window where you can lock without BAP but it's impossible to stay inside for any meaningful period. It's something like between 180 and 160m. BAP counters ECM, but only one. All Mech's packing streaks should also pack BAP.

So, 2x ECM cancel 1x BAP.

Edited by Pater Mors, 18 June 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[Nauht]

Pre-BAP changes ECM killed off streakcats. Now they're back but with SRM damage as it is they haven't flooded games as they used to.
Pre-BAP changes 1 ECM light could literally run slow circles around a streakcat and there was nothing the streakcat could do to return fire.
Now it's a bit more even but one BAP only counters one ECM - so if two ECM mechs are circling you you're back to being blocked and unable to fire. Just have your buddy bring his BAP.

[Pater Mors]

Here you go:

Quote

BAP
Now here's the biggie. BAP is meant to increase your sensor range by amplifying your sensor systems. It allows you to get detail targeting information faster and also allows you to detect nearby shutdown Mechs. Yeah? So?... well...

BAP will now negate ECM within 150m (tuning number) of the enemy. Negate? What 'chu talkin' 'bout Paul?

If Mech X has BAP, and Mech Y has ECM, and Mech X gets within 150m or less of Mech Y, Mech Y loses all effects of ECM. It is a 100% counter to ECM. Mech Y is now vulnerable to LRMs/S-SRMs as long as Mech X stays within 150m. Any friendly Mechs to Mech Y will no longer be shielded until Mech X leaves the 150m area around Mech Y.

ECM is now a long range Mech item. A scout can now use it to remain hidden from LRMs while performing their job. A LRM/command Atlas can rain down death while maintaining LoS on their distant targets without worries of LRMs coming back at them.

[Treblesaurus Rex]

Ahhhhhhhhh thats the problem then, I was carrying a BAP but my lancemate wasnt... Well now I know next time I see that happening to loosen up formation and hopefully seperate the ECMs.

Thank you for confirmation on that, and thank all you pilots that responded. The situation vexed me greatly.

[General Taskeen]

More ECM, More BAP, More Streaks, More PPC.

That is the snowball effect of Big Fish Balancing that is 'ECM.' The root of all balance problems with it. Completely defeats the purpose of having stock mechs available in the game, I.E., ruining the spirit of Battle Tech.

And in a game that includes random match making, you literally can not count on what another random is going to have for you on their behalf.

One giant ***********.

Edited by General Taskeen, 18 June 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Treblesaurus Rex, on 18 June 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Ahhhhhhhhh thats the problem then, I was carrying a BAP but my lancemate wasnt... Well now I know next time I see that happening to loosen up formation and hopefully seperate the ECMs.

Thank you for confirmation on that, and thank all you pilots that responded. The situation vexed me greatly.

No worries mate. As a fellow StreakCat pilot I feel your pain upon running into a pair of 3L's. The moment they spot you, you know you're toast.

Good hunting.

[OneEyed Jack]

Pater Mors, on 18 June 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Correct. There is a tiny window where you can lock without BAP but it's impossible to stay inside for any meaningful period. It's something like between 180 and 160m. BAP counters ECM, but only one. All Mech's packing streaks should also pack BAP.

So, 2x ECM cancel 1x BAP.

The range is between 180 and 200m that you can gain a lock through ECM without BAP. If you have the advanced range module, it becomes 180-250m. With both BAP and the module, you only lose lock at 150-180m and above 250m.

[Deathlike]

PGI's Information Warfare™: It's where everyone must carry a counter to one device or you're screwed.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

There is a lesson here for you. If you bring SSRMs, bring BAP. If you and your buddy both have SSRMs, then you both need BAP. 2 BAP will cancel 2 ECM. 1 BAP will cancel one, but a second ECM will still shut down your lock-on capability.

If PGI were willing, they'd turn all the electronics into soft counters with bonuses and penalties that interacted rather than a series of hard counters that utterly shut each other down.

[Nauht]

Deathlike, on 18 June 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

PGI's Information Warfare™: It's where everyone must carry a counter to one device or you're screwed.

Such is the nature of warfare ever since the first caveman figured out a shield could counter a hit.

[OneEyed Jack]

Deathlike, on 18 June 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

PGI's Information Warfare™: It's where everyone must carry a counter to one device or you're screwed.

Only if "everyone" is completely reliant on guided missiles with no back-up weapons. ECM doesn't even slow down bullets or lasers.

[Deathlike]

Nauht, on 18 June 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Such is the nature of warfare ever since the first caveman figured out a shield could counter a hit.

*Insert Captain Atlas photo here*

OneEyed Jack, on 18 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Only if "everyone" is completely reliant on guided missiles with no back-up weapons. ECM doesn't even slow down bullets or lasers.

That's true, there's still the issue with streaks+lights, which ECM shouldn't be addressing (although, part of it is due to the Streak tracking).

Edited by Deathlike, 18 June 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[Pater Mors]

OneEyed Jack, on 18 June 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

The range is between 180 and 200m that you can gain a lock through ECM without BAP. If you have the advanced range module, it becomes 180-250m. With both BAP and the module, you only lose lock at 150-180m and above 250m.

Ah okay, cheers. Wasn't sure of the exact numbers there. It's still a rather small window without the ASM.