180 replies to this topic

[Pater Mors]

Dock Steward, on 19 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I don't know about making them fully realistic ballistics, but recoil would certainly be a good start. Give each variant a recoil threshold, exceed that and you risk blowing the weapon right out of your mech!

Or falling over...

Recoil is fine too. I just think it's ridiculous we essentially have guns that can put multiple rounds through a bullseye and any different range infinitely. No two rounds are the same and the chances of shooting at a 100m target twice and hitting it in the same spot, unless your gun is mounted and all motion is eliminated from the equation and the target is stationary, are infinitesimal at best. Doing it all day at targets of all ranges while both targets are running fast and moving in opposite lateral directions is ridiculous.

[Sheraf]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I love going in the mechlab picking out new weapons and upgrading my speed. Trying out the new loadout. It should be really fun. But your opponent got to tweak his mech as well and he only plays to win. Everybody wants to win but not everyone wants to take the same rout.

The Problem is there are certain chasis and weapons that are better then the rest. You end up playing things that there are no good counters for. Like a lot of you, I am tired of running into PPC boats. To counter I would have to build the same way. I don't want to play the same way hence the fun level goes down. Makes me want to leave possibly fun game behind and go do seomthing else.

Why should I have to use the same thing as everyone else to try and win this game?

The Solution is less customization choices.

Now nobody is going to want to play the stock mech, but I do think all stock mechs should have a place in the game.

Right now they do not.

Each varient has its own fun play style but the problem nobody gets to experience it because of the few best loadouts for each mech.

I think all modifications should be standardised into refit choices.

I think every varient of a chassis should have at least 4 different refits possibly more.

All the refits should be designed around a realistic role for the varient. These refits are preset by the developers.

Start with two different field refits(Minor peformance tweak). One could lose a weapon and add armor. The other could be add some heat sinks. Or different main weapon something that makes it worth trying but not enough to completely throw off balence.

The other two refits should be factory(Major Role change or just overall upgrade). Use the lvl 2 tech(Double HS, Endo, ER, Streak, ECM) but limit it too the two possibly loadouots. They should still keep the flavor of the original varient. Or be geared towards a specfic role. These refits will cost the most to do.

Engine upgrades beyond the occasional XL will be mostly gone. The chasis determines the speed.

Maybe each faction could have their own refit of each varient that only a member of that faction can have access.

Why make these changes?

This will give every varient and chassis a reason to exist.

It will improve the gameplay.

It will encorage trying different chasis.

It will keep the game fun.

The Awesome should be THE ppc boat.

The Commando should be useful and able to harrass heavies.

The Spider should be the fastest and most manuverable mech.

The Dragon and Quickdraw should be THE fast heavies.

All lights should not have to move at 150 kph to be effective.

Heavy and Medium LRM mechs will be useful.

The Develepor will have more methods of balencing game play then just tweaking weapons.

Spend too little time in game leads to unable to find effective strategy

[Otto Cannon]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Now there is no reason to run 6 ppc's in table top because your mech has a chance of exploding the first time you try to alpha strike. But since there is no restricton why the heck not... it gives me a huge advanatage.

I'm confused. You clearly understand that the TT game worked because you could build any mech you want and the heat penalties and lack of convergence would stop builds being too powerful, but you want the opposite to be true in this game?

Why should MWO have a crippled build system instead of fixing convergence and/or heat?

Edited by Otto Cannon, 19 June 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[WarRats]

Otto Cannon, on 19 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

I'm confused. You clearly understand that the TT game worked because you could build any mech you want and the heat penalties and lack of convergence would stop builds being too powerful, but you want the opposite to be true in this game?

Why should MWO have a crippled build system instead of fixing convergence and/or heat?

Sorry, I was trying to say that as the mindset of a lot of the players. That is why I am arguing for more restrictions/limitations that something like heat scale would add. I would like the 6 ppc stalker option right off the table, to make it easy for everyone.

[Dock Steward]

WarRats, on 20 June 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Sorry, I was trying to say that as the mindset of a lot of the players. That is why I am arguing for more restrictions/limitations that something like heat scale would add. I would like the 6 ppc stalker option right off the table, to make it easy for everyone.

Careful with your wording there. I don't think most people want things to be "easy for everyone."

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Yeah people who say stuff like MW tactics are another place are just trying to pull this thread off topic. Not to worry, I'm sure it will go to the place the rest of the similar threads go now. Mechlabs unrestricted is really bad, add pinpoint damage and its a complete fail.

[WarRats]

Dock Steward, on 20 June 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

Careful with your wording there. I don't think most people want things to be "easy for everyone."

True, I definitely don't want the game to be dumbed down. But the instant kill gratification that a 6 ppc stalker can provide is just to hard for some players to resist using if it is available.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Your right its not. But it is darn close. I can choose to mount 6 ppcs with no real penalties beyond shutting down. I can choose to use an assault everytime.


Now there is no reason to run 6 ppc's in table top because your mech has a chance of exploding the first time you try to alpha strike. But since there is no restricton why the heck not... it gives me a huge advanatage.

Everbody wants to win the games they play. Some play only to win and some like competition.

I am one who likes competition. I think planning different strategies with a team is a lot of fun. Using different mechs in different roles would make this game great.

You can not currently do this. There is no limits in 8 mans. The majority of time you will face PPCs and whatever other cheese currently works. Very rarily will you find a mixed balanced team that leads to the most fun fair team fight where alternate tactics can be used.

The only way to fight the cheese is to use it yourself. Therefore fun tactics and trying different things go out the window.

This game is self limiting by having a few things be vastly more powerful then others. Players do everything they can to win therfor exploting these powerful things. But that just means the game is unbalenced and only a select few will find it fun to continue to play.

Well said and true, I see this title joining the many others like it in the past. What's 12 more years waiting for a good Battletech title!

[BootHands]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

snip

Disagree. The insane customization is all that keeps this game from being a dysfunctional clone of World Of Tanks.

If you want to play World of Tanks, might as well go do it on their relatively stable servers.

Edited by BootHands, 20 June 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[WarRats]

Im pretty sure I didn't say that.

I have never played world of tanks.

But are you saying the game play if it was not for the customization would be the same as world of tanks?

[Riptor]

Target Rich, on 19 June 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Been playing MW titles for over 30 years now. The core of the FUN of Mecha is having a wide range of options in loadouts...so that you can have that mech perform a wide variety of roles.

This hardpoint restriction crap came as an overreaction by the MW4 development team to "boating" in MW3. They set up one of the absolutely most insanely STUPID hardpoint restriction setups ever seen...a setup that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the basic battletech that the game was supposedly based upon.

I find the current MWO hardpoint restrictions absolutely insanely STUPID. It requires you to spend just an amazing amount of time grinding multiple variations of a single mech just to get these stupid layouts functional. That is foundational to the World of Tanks economic system that has been ported into this game which is designed to fustrate the living heck out of the player...thus causing them to spend lots of hard cash buying premium accounts and lots of gold to get decent playability.

Just wait until they stick you fools with the World of Tanks repair and resupply cost modules. MWO is easy to grind right now...but with the WOT economic system...you will find your cbill earning eaten up by reloading ammunition and repair after each match...and if you do NOT win the match...and if the MWO team mirrors the WOT matching system...it is virtually impossible to gain much over a 50 percent win rate for PUG's as the matching engine penalizes the good players by matching them with newbies in the upper level tanks...or mechs in our MWO world.

Mech Warrior is based on chasing that "ultimate" loadout....the more options you make...ah la Chromehounds....the more players get addicted...the more teamwork happens as units work out those best loadouts....

Having hardpoint restricted "stock" type of mechs is good for the "tin foil hat" crowd like yourself...but the majority of casual players...who PAY for the game...want to have FUN...and hardpoints spoil that fun.!!

Oh...BTW...Battletech has always encouraged BOATING. And those boated mechs are vunerable to other boats....and on and on...hardpoints do not prevent boats...particularly as in the current iteration of MWO...they merely fustrate....

What a load of BS.. where to begin?

Battletech was never about customisation, the mechwarrior PC games where because they took the CONSTRUCTION RULES and made them into a customisation system that should not have been there to begin with. Not only because it allowed people to build insanely overpowered mechs, no it also made different chassis of the same tonnage redundant, made omni mechs totaly obsolete and was impossible to balance.

That system was never made with competitive multyplayer in mind and was focused on singleplayer first and only.

About boats in BT:

Wrong wrong wrong. Boats are a dwindling minority in the battletech universe and are VERY specialized to boot. Not only where those boats build with the balancing factor of every weapon having a great chance of hitting a different component and not like we have it now in MWO ALL ON THE SAME SPOT, lore wise those mechs could only work when they where paired with more jack of all trades mechs because the situation on the battlefield was highly different. A lance of blackhawks would stand no chance against a lance with long range and short range firepower. They might get through the firestorm and reach their enemies but then they wouldnt have much left to fight because they allready are half dead when they reach the enemy.

Also this game is so far away from what the real Mech fights looked like as can be. This isnt Mechwarrior, this is Solaris.

Battletech has never "encouraged" boating.. get your facts right.. just because theres a handfull of boats in the over 500 different mechs and variants doesnt mean its "encouraging".

Actually boating was highly ineffective. Boating LRM? Stand next to the guy and laugh as he cant hit you. Boating medium lasers? Have fun being shot to pieces by long range weapons without a chance of firing back. Boating AC/20s? Same thing, plus the added risk of getting an ammo explosion.

Boats where niche mechs fit for a specific role and only that role.. dont make it sounds as if they where the norm.

Also Chromehounds while an interesting game had terrible balance and its playerbase was anything but "big".. time to take off the rose tinted glasses and see reality.

The most balanced games dont allow you full costumization for a good reason.

Oh and last but not least:

The repair and rearm will not be re implemented.. that was allready stated by the devs. So quit your fearmongering about the WoT economy and inform yourselfe before spouting such nonsense

Edited by Riptor, 20 June 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Livewyr]

Boating isn't really the problem- individual weapons are the problem.

Example:
If a PPC actually paid real heat for its shot, it would be ok to use individually or in as a pair, but painful to boat.
This would be just like an AC10.. whichby itself is ok to use in its own right- pointless to try and boat as getting more than 3 requires 36 tons even before ammunition.


I think the AC20 needs to have it's damage drop of much quicker. Historically, it paid for it's light tonnage-damage ratio (compared to other ballistics) with short range.. but right now, it's just as good or better than the AC10 at the AC10's range.

Balancing weapons against its self, to even them out will solve the boating issue. (It won't eliminate boats, but it will make boating MUCH more costly.. as is needed right now.. for the PPC stalker

Also: Heat penalties.

[MaddMaxx]

WarRats, on 20 June 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Sorry, I was trying to say that as the mindset of a lot of the players. That is why I am arguing for more restrictions/limitations that something like heat scale would add. I would like the 6 ppc stalker option right off the table, to make it easy for everyone.

Have you ever driven a 6 PPC Stalker? If not, then seriously. Buy and build one. Drive it for 10 straight Matches and then come back and tell us how you did.

If you haven't driven one, please refrain from removing stuff from the game that you have not even tested. Thanks

Edited by MaddMaxx, 20 June 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Livewyr]

I drove the 6PPC stalker BEFORE the PPC heatnerf/speed buff... it was powerful, but laughable (as I could only get 1 alpha then had to wait 10 seconds to shoot, otherwise next would be auto shutdown.)

Now it's powerful, and not so laughable.

(And then there's the 4PPC/Gauss miseries that run around..that's obscene..)

[BootHands]

WarRats, on 20 June 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Im pretty sure I didn't say that.

I have never played world of tanks.

But are you saying the game play if it was not for the customization would be the same as world of tanks?

It would more or less be the same game. It'd be World of Robots. Where you pick a chassis, maybe an ammo type, have a handful of pilot skills.

WoT is fun for a while, but it's easy to get tired of it, as there is really nothing to do beyond find a spot on the map and snipe if you're heavy, or try to find heavies and circle them while shooting if you're a light.

Making this game a WoT clone, would also encourage it to become P2W, like WoT is.

[Livewyr]

BootHands, on 20 June 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

perfectly legitimate post

Actually, in regards to your signature:

I disagree.

[Jestun]

Disagree.

Balance does not require us to retreat into pre-defined stock builds.

BootHands, on 20 June 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Making this game a WoT clone, would also encourage it to become P2W, like WoT is.

Please learn what pay 2 win means before accusing games of being it.

[BootHands]

Jestun, on 20 June 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Please learn what pay 2 win means before accusing games of being it.

Are you disagreeing that WoT is P2W?

Because it's not hard to demonstrate that it is. There is cash only ammo which is objectively better than F2P ammo, and you've got monsters like the Lowe that you can only get with cash.

[Livewyr]

Jestun, on 20 June 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Please learn what pay 2 win means before accusing games of being it.

I heard WoT is changing away from the P2W scheme, has it done that yet?
(Because when I *did* play it, it was horribly pay2win. Gold ammo, gold consumables each with not marginal, but extremely competitive advantages over their freerency counterparts. When I played with MLP in CWs, the only thing we could get away with using freerency ammo on, in CWs battles, was the T92. Outside of that, Gold ammo was a competitive requirement.)

[Jestun]

BootHands, on 20 June 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Are you disagreeing that WoT is P2W?

Because it's not hard to demonstrate that it is. There is cash only ammo which is objectively better than F2P ammo, and you've got monsters like the Lowe that you can only get with cash.

Gold ammo has not been limited to RMT for a long time, I've not played it in months and it could be purchased via ingame currency way back then.

The RMT only tanks are actually worse than the normal tanks. However they are better at earning the ingame currency as they don't need repairs and have a bonus to the amount that you earn (from what I remember).

So the RMT tanks can be more convenient for a player while he is progressing, but they are not the best in their tier.

:edit:

Quote

• Added ability to purchase premium rounds using credits in addition to the current gold variant (prices are based on 1 gold = 400 credits exchange rates)

Source: http://forum.worldof...anks-81-update/

March 2013 was when gold ammo became purchasable with ingame currency.

My tanks used to have 5-10 rounds of gold in case I came up against a very high armour target, but most of your ammo doesn't need to be gold unless you have a really low penetration gun.

:edit2:

Re: premium tanks:

Quote

Premium tanks are tanks that can be obtained only by purchasing them with gold, in the portal's gift shop (if available), or by some special event or package. All premium tanks start at Elite status since they have nothing to research.
Premium tanks may not perform as well as other tanks of their tier, but they are much better at earning credits. In general they perform better than an equivalent stock tank, but not as good as one that is fully upgraded.

Source: http://wiki.worldoft...m/Premium_Tanks

Edited by Jestun, 20 June 2013 - 07:11 AM.