180 replies to this topic

[Outlaw]

I think the best way to limit the customization without taking it completely out of the game would be to have different classes of hardpoints broken down into Heavy Medium and Light. As an example Heavy Energy would consist of ER PPCs and PPCs, Medium would consist of ER Large, Large and Large Pulse lasers, while light would consist of Medium, Medium Pulse, Small and Small Pulse Lasers, with each group capable of runing weapons from a lighter weapon class. This sort of format would help limit the insane alpha cheese builds that we see and a large number of players are complaining about, while not throwing customization right out the window.

Edited by Outlaw, 19 June 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[ExtremeA79]

Outlaw, on 19 June 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I think the best way to limit the customization without taking it completely out of the game would be to have different classes of hardpoints broken down into Heavy Medium and Light. As an example Heavy Energy would consist of ER PPCs and PPCs, Medium would consist of ER Large, Large and Large Pulse lasers, while light would consist of Medium, Medium Pulse, Small and Small Pulse Lasers, with each group capable of runing weapons from a lighter weapon class. This sort of format would help limit the insane alpha cheese builds that we see and a large number of players are complaining about, while not throwing customization right out the window.

Thats basically hardpoint sizes.

[WarRats]

Ok back to the Annihilator. It has 2 AC/20s, large laser, LRM-15 and moves at 30kph.

You run into one of those you stay far away from the dual ac/20s. It makes the mech interesting or unique because it is the only one at its time line that has dual ac/20s. This mech clearly has weakness and would not completly dominate the game because of its weakness but could be fun to use in certain situations.

Now take duel AC/20 jagers or Cats. There effective because they can get up close to a target fast. There is no fast dual AC/20 mech in 3050.

One of the problems of these high alpha builds is that you run into 3-6 mechs with the same loadouts on one team. Your mech comes into view and your dead.

Now what canon mech has 6 PPC's?

Edited by WarRats, 19 June 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Odins Fist]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

"Too Much Mech Customization Leads To Terrible Game Balance"

You have absolutely no idea just how bad MWO would be without a certain level of customization, none.
There are so many people in this thread with ideas, so here are some below..

#1. HAVE A BUY-IN SO YOU CAN CUSTOMIZE..!! (Oh wait we already have that), trial mechs anyone..??

But wait there's more...
#2. Limit the customization... How?? Have yet another BUY-IN (Oh wait we already have that too)
-Just because you can buy the variant you want, you still have to afford to load it out the way you want.-

Still more...
#3. Penalize anyone with enough C-Bills to build what they can (Oh wait it's coming HEAT PENALTIES)

Yet more
#4. Nerf certain weapons systems so that nobody can have an advantage due to their intelligence when loading out their mech.
-(Oh wait, the DEVs are doing that for us already)-
.

When are people going to stop acting like they are ENTITLED, acting as if the DESERVE some sort of HANDOUT from the DEVs so that they can feel EQUAL to everyone else..?? Participation Trophies are for weak children with the emotional stability of a cheap lawn chair (folding under the slightest pressure).
Equality is a MYTH, it's a misguided, lofty, ideal that has NEVER worked in practice in the history of mankind. Just because someone wants to be a Navy Seal, Rock Star, or a pro NFL quarterback, doesn't mean they can actually BE that, some people just don't have what it takes, and to CODDLE an individual, and telling them things like "you can be whatever you want, you're just as good at everything as everyone else", is a bad joke perpetrated upon children, and the weak minded by awful parents, and weak willed socialists.
Misery loves company, and the weak gather together like large swarms of parasites and cry to those they envy, look around you in the world today..!! MWO is just a VIDEO GAME, if you can't figure a way to play it, then maybe you should change your approach to MWO. This situation is not like being on a Fire Dept. for years, then getting hurt, not being able to be a full time FireFighter anymore and retiring, we are talking about a freaking VIDEO GAME here.
I literally can't wait until CLAN TECH drops into MWO, the level of crying will be a monsoon..!! Oh, wait, I don't want to see that kind of complaining all over again.

I agree there is still some degree of weapons balancing (and so on) that should continue, but there are limits to this.

Until MWO keeps all people running TRIAL MECHS, or brand new players from being matched with people running BOUGHT mechs loaded out INTELLIGENTLY, then you will still see some people CRYING about inequality.
NOBODY should be rewarded for failure.

Until MWO has a good lobby system, you will see similar issues being brought up.
Until CW hits, and we see what the full release is, you will see similar issues.

Those things are needed, but trying to tell me that Timmy wants to be good and have as much fun as Johnny, but Timmy can't figure out his controls, Timmy doesn't understand heat management, Timmy thinks he's Rambo, Timmy doesn't have enough C-Bills, and Timmy is crying because Johnny keeps stomping Timmy's keyster into pulp all the time, doesn't mean you try to penalize Johnny. It means the most you should do is make sure (if you want to keep Timmy as a customer), that you should just keep Timmy away from the kids that are wearing their big boy pants, like a different match making system for trial mechs, a lobby, so on and so forth, ELO isn't working that way.
This isn't about ELITISM anymore, it's about soemthing else now, and if people can't figure out exactly what it is, then it's pointless trying to tell them, they will just DENY it, and clutch even tighter to their little participation trophies they have accumulated all their lives.

If you keep giving Timmy a participation trophy, Timmy will never learn...

There needs to be C-BILL (buy-ins) for a lot more of the aspects of MWO, this will keep the Timmys of the world that have Mom and Dad's credit card from crying so much.. Why you ask..?? Because, by the time they have enough C_BILLS for the (buy-in), they should have enough experience, and skill to handle themselves.
Also by that time Timmy will be a dedicated customer, why you ask??? Because, he will have enough time and effort put into MWO that he will feel like he must continue at that point. Just look at what he as invested into MWO in terms of time and effort.
Keep Timmy playing.!!!

As far as I know you cannot purchase straight up C-BILLS with a credit card, you have to earn them playing, unless you do a really expensive conversion of buying Mechs and selling them, but that's not realistic, and Hero Mechs only make so many C-Bills.

Keep Timmy playing for the C-BILLS, he will get better, and if he is put in a decent lobby or matchmaker he will keep coming back for more, and at a certain point Timmy will won't cry anymore. That's the extent of the handout Timmy should get.

This is only one suggestion, not meant to cure MWO as a whole, but it has implications on other aspects of MWO as well, also an unintended influence on other problems within the MWO community.

I need a smoke... See you out on the Battlefield.

Edited by Odins Fist, 19 June 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Dock Steward]

Odins Fist, I don't disagree with what you're saying but you clearly don't have children.

[Odins Fist]

Dock Steward, on 19 June 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Odins Fist, I don't disagree with what you're saying but you clearly don't have children.

You're assumption is wrong, I have a 15 year old son.

Assumption is the mother of all mistakes.

[ExtremeA79]

Odins Fist, on 19 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

You're assumption is wrong, I have a 15 year old son.

Assumption is the mother of all mistakes.

Your son must hate your guts.


Now being serious, I hope your son is doing well.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 19 June 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Anyone who's played the TT game knows the OP is correct. No serious TT campaign can have a no-restriction mechlab and be worth a crap. Otherwise everyone would load up on 7/11/7 clan large pulse lasers and that's always fun. Its really not hard to see that a large problem is the mechlab. The other problem is PGI isn't able to develop this game to a place that was promised. They lack a real vision and the "grit" to stay on the course they said the would.

[Dock Steward]

Odins Fist, on 19 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

You're assumption is wrong, I have a 15 year old son.

Assumption is the mother of all mistakes.

I don't want to meet your kid. But if I did, I'd hug him.

I'm just kidding. Hope I didn't offend.

I agree that new players shouldn't be coddled in a way that wrecks the experience for everyone else, but I do see the merit in giving small children participation trophies in real life.

[Odins Fist]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 19 June 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Anyone who's played the TT game knows the OP is correct.

Since WHEN did MWO stick to TT rules..??? MWO is not TT.

You want to be in the MechWarrior Online "TACTICS" forums.

Dock Steward, on 19 June 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I do see the merit in giving small children participation trophies in real life.

Not good, they never learn how to deal with failure correctly, and it primes them to have a weakened emotional state when they are not rewarded for failure.

Patting a child on the back, and telling them you will help them to get better for their next attempt is far better than giving them a participation trophy.

When only one child wins a trophy, all the other children will either be even more motivated to succeed and try to win that trophy, or they will move on to things better suited to their abilities.

Telling a child that they made a good attempt, then helping them improve, is better than coddling them.

Edited by Odins Fist, 19 June 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[WarRats]

Lol, rules and restrictions do not make a game less fun. They make it more competitive.

Why do you have to dribble in basketball? Why is their foul lines in baseball? Why have a forward pass in football? The cards are randomly dealt to players in card games?

Gaming does differ from normal sports because boundaries are set by the programers and any advantage a gamer can take designed or not they will.

That is why it is important to see how other fun games have evolved by adding rules and refining things. That is how competitive sports are born.

Anything goes leads to vastly OP one dimensional gaming.

[Odins Fist]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Anything goes leads to vastly OP one dimensional gaming.

Last time I looked MWO was not anything goes...

[Dock Steward]

Odins Fist, on 19 June 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Since WHEN did MWO stick to TT rules..??? MWO is not TT.

You want to be in the MechWarrior Online "TACTICS" forums.



Not good, they never learn how to deal with failure correctly, and it primes them to have a weakened emotional state when they are not rewarded for failure.

Patting a child on the back, and telling them you will help them to get better for their next attempt is far better than giving them a participation trophy.

When only one child wins a trophy, all the other children will either be even more motivated to succeed and try to win that trophy, or they will move on to things better suited to their abilities.

Telling a child that they made a good attempt, then helping them improve, is better than coddling them.

This is not the right place to have this conversation, but I absolutely cannot resist.

The participation trophy is the pat on the back. It tells small children, good for you for being brave enough to get out there and compete. Dealing with failure properly is a lesson all children need to learn, for sure, but a participation trophy doesn't deny them that lesson.

Now, that being said, not keeping score in Little League games is really some BS!

[WarRats]

Odins Fist, on 19 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Last time I looked MWO was not anything goes...

Your right its not. But it is darn close. I can choose to mount 6 ppcs with no real penalties beyond shutting down. I can choose to use an assault everytime.


Now there is no reason to run 6 ppc's in table top because your mech has a chance of exploding the first time you try to alpha strike. But since there is no restricton why the heck not... it gives me a huge advanatage.

Everbody wants to win the games they play. Some play only to win and some like competition.

I am one who likes competition. I think planning different strategies with a team is a lot of fun. Using different mechs in different roles would make this game great.

You can not currently do this. There is no limits in 8 mans. The majority of time you will face PPCs and whatever other cheese currently works. Very rarily will you find a mixed balanced team that leads to the most fun fair team fight where alternate tactics can be used.

The only way to fight the cheese is to use it yourself. Therefore fun tactics and trying different things go out the window.

This game is self limiting by having a few things be vastly more powerful then others. Players do everything they can to win therfor exploting these powerful things. But that just means the game is unbalenced and only a select few will find it fun to continue to play.

[Buzzkillin]

As much as I love the mechwarrior/battletech series, a multiplayer game will not work because you will have those players that will have the easiest build. I sometimes just want another Mech Commander but with a mechlab of MWO and limited resources. I can then outfit my battlemechs to what I have left and the upcoming battle. But in MWO that doesn't happen. You allowed to roam free. Allowing interesting mech layouts, but also monstrosities to spawn. I don't see how they are going to balance this game anytime soon. Anything in player control will be abuse in some way.

Sometimes I want repair and rearm to return, because then you will have to find a STD mech to use often, instead you leave the more expensive mechs for high stake battles(Mainly for CW). I believe there are enough mechs out there now for people to find something they are comfortable with. R&R was a good idea, but implemented poorly.

[Odins Fist]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

I can choose to mount 6 ppcs with no real penalties beyond shutting down. I can choose to use an assault everytime.

Now there is no reason to run 6 ppc's in table top because your mech has a chance of exploding the first time you try to alpha strike.

MWO is not BattleTech Table-TOP... MechWarrior Online Tactics "is" (kinda)
Since when has MWO stuck to BattleTech Table Top rules.??

Odins Fist, on 19 June 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Until MWO keeps all people running TRIAL MECHS, or brand new players from being matched with people running BOUGHT mechs loaded out INTELLIGENTLY, then you will still see some people CRYING about inequality.
NOBODY should be rewarded for failure.

Until MWO has a good lobby system, you will see similar issues being brought up.
Until CW hits, and we see what the full release is, you will see similar issues.

Those things are needed, but trying to tell me that Timmy wants to be good and have as much fun as Johnny, but Timmy can't figure out his controls, Timmy doesn't understand heat management, Timmy thinks he's Rambo, Timmy doesn't have enough C-Bills, and Timmy is crying because Johnny keeps stomping Timmy's keyster into pulp all the time, doesn't mean you try to penalize Johnny. It means the most you should do is make sure (if you want to keep Timmy as a customer), that you should just keep Timmy away from the kids that are wearing their big boy pants, like a different match making system for trial mechs, a lobby, so on and so forth, ELO isn't working that way.

[DocBach]

Odins Fist, on 19 June 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

MWO is not BattleTech Table-TOP... MechWarrior Online Tactics "is" (kinda)
Since when has MWO stuck to BattleTech Table Top rules.??

MWO does in fact use most of Battletech's rules for constructing 'Mechs (with hardpoint resrictions, and liberalized engine rules) and the damage locations of 'Mechs, but does not keep the same rules for dealing damage (massive damage to pinpoint locations) or heat penalties (only penalty is shutting down). Hence, you see builds that take maximum advantage of the new system creating superior weapons platforms - high heat weapons that inflict maximum damage to single locations.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Just curious Odins, have you ever gone back and read the original dev blogs and such outlining the game? And the things that drew people to spending money on the founders program?

[Odins Fist]

DocBach, on 19 June 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

MWO does in fact use most of Battletech's rules for constructing 'Mechs but does not keep the same rules for dealing damage (massive damage to pinpoint locations) or heat penalties (only penalty is shutting down).

Indeed, when has MWO stuck to Table Top rules...
And yes I do know that MWO was based on BattleTech/MechWarrior.. (facepalm)

Aren't most of the loadouts people are complaining about "NOT" possible in BattlTech Table Top for I.S. Mechs..??

Again, since when has MWO stuck to BattleTech Table Top rules... It hasn't from the begining of customization.

Going to a canon only set of rules would sink MWO, since MWO is a video game and "NOT" BattleTech Table Top.
Some things wouldn't translate in a way conducive to a multiplayer video game.

Without certain levels of customization MWO would be boring, and quickly uninstalled.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 June 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Just curious Odins, have you ever gone back and read the original dev blogs and such outlining the game? And the things that drew people to spending money on the founders program?

Been in since closed beta, I guess their original vision has changed a little huh.

MWO is "NOT" BattleTech Table Top.. Some things simply do not translate well, obviously.
Please see: MechWarrior Online "Tactics" for Table Top play.

Big expectations often lead to disappointments.

EDIT: I did not buy into the founders program, simply because I expected to be disappointed if I would have then didn't get the game I (would have) helped fund to develop.

I saved myself dealing with that entire issue completely.

Edited by Odins Fist, 19 June 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[East Indy]

Target Rich, on 19 June 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Been playing MW titles for over 30 years now. The core of the FUN of Mecha is having a wide range of options in loadouts...so that you can have that mech perform a wide variety of roles.

If choices are unlimited, what usually happens is the opposite. Players become so anxious to win they fixate on a few simple, easy-to-use designs that capitalize on the game's vulnerabilities to meta play for quick kills. Other players face a choice between individuality and competitiveness; most of them shrug their shoulders and join what they can't beat.

PGI has done a good job with inoculating its game from the blandness of win-at-all-costs gameplay, but needs to limit boating to designs intended to be them. The Awesome was a unique 'Mech because it was so single-minded. But what's the point of having it in the game when every assault 'Mech has a variant that can be manhandled to provide the same loadout?

tenderloving, on 19 June 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Your statement makes no sense. If 100 PPCs are off balance that means that 1 PPC is off balance? Where do you draw the line?

He's talking about the rule of tactics: if it works, use it, and use it a lot. Pertinent to what I wrote above, players recognize the effectiveness of PPCs, so they try to multiply that in a way that is as simple to execute as possible (boating).