180 replies to this topic

[Galen Crayn]

Every word in such thread are wasted... They wont do it. Many people dont like your idea too. No need to talk about. I like it how it is...

[MaddMaxx]

Syllogy, on 19 June 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

It's human nature to attempt to min/max.

You can go so far as to restrict mechs to stock loadouts, and you'd still have the same end result: A lot of people playing very few variants.

Boy, that sounds an awful lot like how MW4 went before it simply collapsed, despite the constant infusion of Mech Paks.

[Dock Steward]

tenderloving, on 19 June 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Your statement makes no sense. If 100 PPCs are off balance that means that 1 PPC is off balance? Where do you draw the line?

Are you implying that 1 PPC is overpowered? How do you make 1 PPC strong without making 6 PPCs overpowered? You really can't.

You absolutely can. And it's true, it's simple math.

If a weapon is balanced, then the advantages (A) of using that weapon equal the drawbacks (D) of said weapon.

A=D

If you multiply A by 6 then 6 x A = 6 x D

Six times the advantages equal six times the drawbacks if the weapon is truly balanced.

[tenderloving]

Dock Steward, on 19 June 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

You absolutely can. And it's true, it's simple math.

If a weapon is balanced, then the advantages (A) of using that weapon equal the drawbacks (D) of said weapon.

A=D

If you multiply A by 6 then 6 x A = 6 x D

Six times the advantages equal six times the drawbacks if the weapon is truly balanced.

Then why did the maximum number of medium lasers need to be limited? Are medium lasers unbalanced? How would you balance them such that medium lasers would be useful in quantities of 2 as well as balanced in quantities of 25?

There is a system in place that prevents super med laser boats from occurring. Why are PPCs/Gauss rifles/AC/20s different?

Edited by tenderloving, 19 June 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

I prefer hard point sizes along with heat balance. Think they would fix game.

[MaddMaxx]

Dock Steward, on 19 June 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

If weapon A is balanced, truly balanced, at quantity of 1 then it will remain balanced at quantity X. If weapon A is ever so slightly off balance at quantity of 1 then that lack of balance only becomes more apparent as quantity increases. You don't see one PPC as being off balance, but the fact that 6 PPC's are way off balance proves that even the 1 is.

Come on ffs. 1 10 pt weapon is not an issue, 6 is. One 5 pt weapon is not an issue, 9 is. One 15 pt weapon is not an issue, 2 is. etc etc etc.

The only TRUE balance is one weapon of one damage value and a max allowed to be carried. That does not even include Heat range, Cool down values.

The Dev could make MWO balanced in a heart beat, most of the players could as well. Would it be even fit to play? Not a GD chance. If I want to carry a non min-maxed load out on a Mech that is either not fast enough, or carrying enough armor to deal with those min-max units, then one forfeits the right to complain about the other choices.

Your FUN, his/her Fun and their FUN are unlike to eve mesh to suit everyone. A fact of gaming sadly, but a fact that, like BT lore, is inherent. What many here say, in veiled words, is DO NOT FU!K with my FUN! It is a legit complaint for sure.

So the best we can hope, and strive for, is "close". That is my hope anyways.

[Dock Steward]

tenderloving, on 19 June 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Then why did the maximum number of medium lasers need to be limited? Are medium lasers unbalanced? How would you balance them such that medium lasers would be useful in quantities of 2 as well as balanced in quantities of 25?

There is a system in place that prevents super med laser boats from occurring. Why are PPCs/Gauss rifles/AC/20s different?

Short answer, it didn't. But if you impose some convoluted, subjective system, then you might as well impose it across the board so it looks as though there's actually logic at play, rather than just a knee jerk reaction to problem.

Edited by Dock Steward, 19 June 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Target Rich, on 19 June 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Been playing MW titles for over 30 years now.

Really? Rather impressive since BT isn't even 30-years old, yet. Mechwarrior the RPG is somewhat younger still, and the first MW computer game is only 24-years old.

Ohhhhhhhhh..... you must be a time-traveler!

[tenderloving]

Dock Steward, on 19 June 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Short answer, it didn't. But if you impose some convoluted, subject system, then you might as well impose it across the board so it looks as though there's actually logic at play, rather than just a knee jerk reaction to problem.

If you think that the ability for any mech with the tonnage to carry 20+ med lasers is not problematic it's clear that there is no way for logic have any affect on you. There's nothing more to discuss here.

[OneEyed Jack]

MaddMaxx, on 19 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Come on ffs. 1 10 pt weapon is not an issue, 6 is. One 5 pt weapon is not an issue, 9 is. One 15 pt weapon is not an issue, 2 is. etc etc etc.

I call BS. That's not balance. That's just you arbitrarily deciding what you consider acceptable. You don't like boating, therefore you think you should get to determine how "boating" is defined and proclaim that it's a problem. Either a weapon is balanced or it isn't, your personal agenda aside.

[Gaan Cathal]

WarRats, on 19 June 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Now nobody is going to want to play the stock mech, but I do think all stock mechs should have a place in the game.

Why? A huge chunk of them are terrible designs and to cap that off every 3025 mech is obsoleted by the discovery of the Helm Memory Core and the introduction of useful Inner Sphere designs.

[Dock Steward]

tenderloving, on 19 June 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

If you think that the ability for any mech with the tonnage to carry 20+ med lasers is not problematic it's clear that there is no way for logic have any affect on you. There's nothing more to discuss here.

Load 20+ medium lasers and tell me the disadvantages don't equal the advantages. First of all the mech with the most energy hardpoints only allows 9. Run 9 medium lasers and see the result. You are either very slow and somewhat heat efficient, or moderately fast and will shut down on 1 alpha. Perfectly balanced? Maybe not. More balanced than the PPC, I'd say.

Also, if you think a mech with a 45 alpha at 270m max range is OP, god help you.

Edited by Dock Steward, 19 June 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

I call BS. That's not balance. That's just you arbitrarily deciding what you consider acceptable. You don't like boating, therefore you think you should get to determine how "boating" is defined and proclaim that it's a problem. Either a weapon is balanced or it isn't, your personal agenda aside.

Dude. You just looking to fight? I was responding to the gentlemen who said you can Balance weapons, for a Single, or Multiples. I simply stated how bizarrely crazy that thought was and pointed out a couple of examples. Please read and digest the whole post and accompanying quotes ffs. Thanks

[Target Rich]

Funny...I was doing pen and paper Battletech in the middle 80's count it yourself

[WarRats]

I played a bunch of 8 mans last night.

We constantly ran into PPC stalkers usually 5 of them. Occasional Highlander with guass and ppcs.

The only lights were Jenners and Ravens. 150 kph with streaks.

There is only one play style that counters that.

This is the current situation. Why not be willing to try something different? If it does not work it can be changed back.

[I am]

OP why would you want to change things? Can't you tell by the overwhelming responses that MWO is immensely popular as it stands, and no changes need applied.

[OneEyed Jack]

Target Rich, on 19 June 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Funny...I was doing pen and paper Battletech in the middle 80's count it yourself

2013 (current year)
-1984 (year published)
29

For the record, that's less than 30. I know it's not by much, but that's the TTG. MechWarrior RPG was 2 years later, and MechWarrior (the PC game) was 3 years after that.

[Foust]

So I agree that if A = B then 6A = 6B, only if the mechs that mount A or B are the same.

If everyone was rolling in a 80 ton chassis, then you can balance weapons A to B.

The issue is that not everyone is rolling 80 tons. Everyone doesn't take a equal amount of damage to destroy. Everyone doesn't have the same ability to carry a equal damage profile. We end up seeing 4A = 2A or 1A, and OP is called. The 50T Centurion getting nearly one shot by the 90T Highlander running 3x ER PPC + Gauss and the the PPC is demonized.

To the OP's point, personally I was concerned from the start that the decision was made to allow full customization instead of locked variants. That ship has long since sailed. I am hoping that drop weight restrictions are put in place. I think that will do some good on the balance front.

[Sybreed]

I want to ask everyone....... in a MWO where there are tonnage limits and hardpoint sizes, what would be the 4 variants the most picked? You guys always say we'll only see the same mechs over and over and I want to know which ones.

[MaddMaxx]

Sybreed, on 19 June 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

I want to ask everyone....... in a MWO where there are tonnage limits and hardpoint sizes, what would be the 4 variants the most picked? You guys always say we'll only see the same mechs over and over and I want to know which ones.

If you create the mechs, from the MWO Garage, with restricted Hard points, then someone will be able to answer that. Until those are in play, the answer cannot be had.

P.S. Tonnage limits and Hard points are not even in the same class of "issue" either.