74 replies to this topic

[Vespere Dax]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

PGI is against any form of randomization, and rightly so. Randomization (a cone of fire in this instance) exists only to soften the skill curve, to make it so someone less skilled can, on occasion, win against someone who is more skilled.

In a game that strives to have even matchmaking, such allowances are utterly unnecessary. Skill should be the only thing deciding the outcome of a match: Not an RNG that determines that your shots went wide while his hit home.

EDIT: I should note that I agree that it's not fun seeing nothing but PPC boats day after day: I used to primarily pilot a 4-PPC Stalker until I realized how much more fun it is to do more fun and crazy stuff most of the time. But PGI is looking into other NON-randomized ways of fixing it, and that's the right call.

They did implement the HEAT stacking rule, well i can be patient and wait to see how that pans out. That still won't fix ac20x2.

Lol I think if you do an alpha over 40 I think you mech should topple over but that's just me.

[Mackman]

Spheroid, on 19 June 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

How are they against it if such a mechanic is already in place for jump jet firing and machine guns?

I haven't used the new jump jets (I barely touched 'em before), but even with the shake, don't your shots go exactly where the reticle says they're going to go?

Also, their dislike of any cone of firing can be found in multiple AtD's. As for how crits work, I concede that is an example of RNG, and I really hope PGI eliminates it.

[OneEyed Jack]

Darren Tyler, on 19 June 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Where did you get your info where IS cannot hit a dime?

First off, not able to use 6 ppc's comes from TT. You also never hear about it in Lore or novels.
2nd, I got the not being able to fire all at once without exploding from everything. TT, lore, novels, common sense (a clan mech wih clan dHs and 4 er ppc's cannot fire all at once without overheating, the masakari so how can a inner sphere mech handle 6?)

I can say the same about your idea. You did not say where did you get you information , this idea. Who told you that your convergence craps out when you alpha? Pgi?
If you are going to be a *** go to off topic.

First, I didn't say anything about convergence, one way or the other. I'm not sure where the crap comes from where you're claiming I argued both sides. Just say "no" to drugs. You claimed they couldn't fire at all, which is just BS you made up. I called you out. Either put up or shut up.

If you can't point out where it says in TT that a mech can't fire 6 PPCs, then it's pure BS. I can point out that in TT I could build a Inner Sphere mech that could, in point of fact, fire 6 PPCs without even hitting automatic shutdown, let alone exploding, as you claim. Especially since there is no explosion in the BT rules at any heat, no matter how high, unless you have ammo that can cook off. The Masakari can no only fire all it's CERPPC's, but also it's missiles without hitting auto shutdown. It would have to roll for shutdown and ammo explosion, but it could do it.

If you wanna argue a point, bring some facts and not a pack of blatant lies.

[Vespere Dax]

Darren Tyler, on 19 June 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Where did you get your info where IS cannot hit a dime?

First off, not able to use 6 ppc's comes from TT. You also never hear about it in Lore or novels.
2nd, I got the not being able to fire all at once without exploding from everything. TT, lore, novels, common sense (a clan mech wih clan dHs and 4 er ppc's cannot fire all at once without overheating, the masakari so how can a inner sphere mech handle 6?)

I can say the same about your idea. You did not say where did you get you information , this idea. Who told you that your convergence craps out when you alpha? Pgi?
If you are going to be a *** go to off topic.

Dude is a cancer (JACK). Ignore and he'll troll somewhere else.

Edited by Vespere Dax, 19 June 2013 - 07:37 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

It doesn't negate skill at all. What negates skill is lining up the perfect shot and having them miss because the RNG said so. That is literally the negation of skill, because your skill in aiming no longer matters as much.

PGI has said, from the very beginning, that they wanted a game where the pilot, and nobody else, determines where weapons hit. That's the game they built, and that's the game they've held to ever since the beginning.

Now, that may not fit your interpretation of MechWarrior.

It may not fit your criteria for a good game.

But it's the game they're building. Now, the really funny thing is that the people advocating for a cone of fire are often the same people using terms like "CoD kids" and "spazzkidies"... when the mechanic they're asking for is, in fact, a primary feature of CoD itself, and a major factor in dumbing down the game and making it less skill-based.

The thing is that you equate skill in aiming with moving a mouse cursor on a two-dimensional screen. In reality, those are not the same thing. You are actually relying on the game to overcome variables such as distance and location of the weapon from the firing mech.

Having the targeting computer tell you "If you fire multiple weapons at this target, your shots will land SOMEWHERE in this circle" would be more realistic than expecting one pull of the trigger to automatically make every shot land on a dime.

If it is about "SKILL", I would be happy to have PGI allow any player that can send in video proof of them strapping 6 laser pointers to their body (RA,RT,CT,H,LT,LA) and have all of those beams converge to a single spot on a moving target while running and jumping. THAT would be skill.

[OneEyed Jack]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I haven't used the new jump jets (I barely touched 'em before), but even with the shake, don't your shots go exactly where the reticle says they're going to go?

Also, their dislike of any cone of firing can be found in multiple AtD's. As for how crits work, I concede that is an example of RNG, and I really hope PGI eliminates it.

Nope. The reticle is basically meaningless during JJ shake. It moves around randomly and then the shots are randomized separately. That's the complaint, aside from the horrendous cockpit shake. There's not even a level of skill where you can try to time it to hit when the reticle lines up.

[PanzerMagier]

Op's suggestion has been posted before by someone in far more detail. I believe it was homeless bill that made a really good thread on it?

But I agree. We need some targeting computer meta to screw around with convergence on alpha strikes.

[OneEyed Jack]

Hotthedd, on 19 June 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

If it is about "SKILL", I would be happy to have PGI allow any player that can send in video proof of them strapping 6 laser pointers to their body (RA,RT,CT,H,LT,LA) and have all of those beams converge to a single spot on a moving target while running and jumping. THAT would be skill.

I'm all for a change to convergence. I don't think it's as big a deal as some people make it out to be, but I do believe it's enough of an issue to be addressed, and the game would probably be more fun for the masses if the damage wasn't quite so pinpoint.

That said, strapping laser pointers you your body, and your ability to aim with them, has no relation at all to mounted weaponry on a combat vehicle, tied to a targeting computer. (I'm referring to a basic targeting computer, not the Clan version). Comparing them in no way furthers your point.

[tenderloving]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Randomization (a cone of fire in this instance) exists only to soften the skill curve, to make it so someone less skilled can, on occasion, win against someone who is more skilled.

Wrong. 100% wrong. It exists so that forms of skill other than pure hopped up on Mt. Dew click-mastery can have their place. It exists to draw out engagement time, knowing that the difficulty in aligning a cursor to a specific spot on the screen and clicking a mouse button is not that difficult. Positioning, teamwork, timing, planning; these are all skills.

If you are truly more skilled than your opponent, your win ratio will look exactly the same with a cone of fire as it did without one.

Edited by tenderloving, 19 June 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Howdy Doody]

Personally I like how convergence is. I like the fact that what I aim at actually hits there.

BUT I do agree that the penalty for Alpha Striking is pretty much non existent and would love it adjusted.

[Hotthedd]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'm all for a change to convergence. I don't think it's as big a deal as some people make it out to be, but I do believe it's enough of an issue to be addressed, and the game would probably be more fun for the masses if the damage wasn't quite so pinpoint.

That said, strapping laser pointers you your body, and your ability to aim with them, has no relation at all to mounted weaponry on a combat vehicle, tied to a targeting computer. (I'm referring to a basic targeting computer, not the Clan version). Comparing them in no way furthers your point.

We have targeting computers? I thought those were not available for the I.S. yet, and cost tonnage and crits.

The Targeting Computer can be used to help aim all direct fire weapons, including most energy and ballistic weapons. This results in a -1 to-hit modifier for all eligible weapons that tie in, or the ability to aim for a location that is not the head with a +3 to-hit penalty. Clan Targeting Computers weigh one ton and occupy one critical slot for every five tons of equipment they control (rounded up), while a comparable Inner Sphere version weighs one ton and occupies one critical slot for every four tons it controls (also rounded up). Total Warfare updated the rules to specify that Pulse Lasers (including Variable Speed Pulse Lasers and X-Pulse Lasers) as well as multi-shot firing autocannon cannot aim their fire, unless the affected autocannon are fired in single shot mode. In addition, an LB-X autocannon only receives the benefits if it is firing solid rounds instead of cluster ammunition.

Either way, the argument was about "skill", and pointing and clicking does not equal "skill" in MY book.

[Lootee]

I'd rather they made a player work for consecutive hits on the same area. So no I'm not for a random cone of fire. I'd rather they added a system that forced a player to spread their shots out over time rather than firing 6-9 different weapons all at once and combining the beams like the super laser on the Death Star.

In CBT you have a 1 in 46656 chance of hitting the same torso or arm 6 times in a row.
Your chances of hitting any other part six times in a row is 1 in 2985984.

In MWO the chance is nearly 1:1. Why? Because they allow you to fire any number of weapons of any size simultaneously with no ill effects. A terrible interpretation that goes completely against the spirit and flavor of the BattleTech universe.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 19 June 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[DocBach]

Homeless Bill's system was pretty complicated. Simpler solution would be have the reticule start off larger than it is now - when you lock on to an enemy, your reticule gets smaller (converges). The speed you are moving and the range in which the weapon is at: ie short, medium, long or minimum, using the shortest ranged weapon in a group so you would be penalized firing PPCs with a Gauss rifle as the Gauss has a longer effective range, determines how small the reticule can converge, the heat level determines how fast the reticule converges.

Add C3 and now your friendlies can spot for your direct fire system by making your weapons converge tighter.

No crazy new system needed, just change how the reticle works.


make it so the torso weapons always aim at the reference point listed - group fire would still give the opportunity to put out a lot of damage in one shot, just not to one location as current.

By providing constant aiming points rather than a randomized cone, the user will always know where his shots will go, and has the ability to increase his odds of concentrating damage by positioning himself in optimal weapons range, lowered movement, and heat management.

Edited by DocBach, 19 June 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[Mackman]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Nope. The reticle is basically meaningless during JJ shake. It moves around randomly and then the shots are randomized separately. That's the complaint, aside from the horrendous cockpit shake. There's not even a level of skill where you can try to time it to hit when the reticle lines up.

On this video, it seems as though the weapons follow the reticle perfectly. Is that not correct?

tenderloving, on 19 June 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Wrong. 100% wrong. It exists so that forms of skill other than pure hopped up on Mt. Dew click-mastery can have their place. It exists to draw out engagement time, knowing that the difficulty in aligning a cursor to a specific spot on the screen and clicking a mouse button is not that difficult. Positioning, teamwork, timing, planning; these are all skills.

If you are truly more skilled than your opponent, your win ratio will look exactly the same with a cone of fire as it did without one.

So you're saying that "Positioning, teamwork, timing, planning" don't have a place in a game without a CoF? Oh, wait, nevermind, it's just the tired old argument that twitch-aiming isn't really a skill. Should have known, since that's what most of these threads come down to.

[tenderloving]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

On this video, it seems as though the weapons follow the reticle perfectly. Is that not correct?



So you're saying that "Positioning, teamwork, timing, planning" don't have a place in a game without a CoF? Oh, wait, nevermind, it's just the tired old argument that twitch-aiming isn't really a skill. Should have known, since that's what most of these threads come down to.

Not what I said. I said that these skills can have their place in a CoF system, ie. they move a little to the front as individual aiming skill moves a little to the back.


Twitch-aiming is a skill, it's just not a very difficult one and it shouldn't be disproportionately important in a team game. It's awesome that you can point a mouse and click in a certain spot. They trained pigeons to guide missiles in WWII by pecking on a picture of a ship. These pigeons had skill, but that skill didn't decide the outcome of the war.

To foster engaging gameplay, systems sometimes have to be put in place that blunt the sharper aspects of individual skill so that the more strategic dynamics can play a larger role. This game is supposed to be the thinking-man's shooter. I've never seen anyone yell "BOOM HEADSHOT" after a chess match, or have a deep voice bellow "QUADRAKILL!!!!!" after a particularly tense poker round where a player bluffs everyone else into folding.

Edited by tenderloving, 19 June 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[Mackman]

tenderloving, on 19 June 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Not what I said. I said that these skills can have their place in a CoF system, ie. they move a little to the front as individual aiming skill moves a little to the back.


Twitch-aiming is a skill, it's just not a very difficult one and it shouldn't be disproportionately important in a team game. It's awesome that you can point a mouse and click in a certain spot. They trained pigeons to guide missiles in WWII by pecking on a picture of a ship. These pigeons had skill, but that skill didn't decide the outcome of the war.

To foster engaging gameplay, systems sometimes have to be put in place that blunt the sharper aspects of individual skill so that the more strategic dynamics can play a larger role. This game is supposed to be the thinking-man's shooter. I've never seen anyone yell "BOOM HEADSHOT" after a chess match.

Lolololol. "I'm not insulting your skill: It's just something akin to what trained pigeons can do!"

Get over yourself, dude. You want a game with a cone of fire? Find one where the devs aren't adamantly against it. To you, twitch-aiming isn't an important skill. But to the developers of this game, it is an important skill.

Do I want a game where I can peek my head over a hill without it getting blown off instantaneously? Of course I do, and so does PGI. But I will never, ever advocate for a game where RNG determines whether I hit my target or not. That breeds the kind of frustration that will drive players away in droves.

[Windsaw]

Eldragon, on 19 June 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Convergence penalties are only workable if the HUD indicates to the user how those penalties take effect..

Umm...

Why?

[OneEyed Jack]

I'm not much of an FPS player. In fact, I don't play console games at all, play mostly MMOs on the PC, and only play this because it's BT. So forgive me for my confusion, but:

How exactly is placing your cursor in the general area of a target, clicking and praying more skillful than compensating for shooter movement, target movement, being jiggled by terrain and (sometimes) flight time to put a small reticle exactly on a target (or in front of one at the right range) and clicking?

Positioning is no more or less a factor. Nor are timing or teamwork. Planning, however, is. In that planning is a very different beast when you have no idea what's going to happen when you pull the trigger.

Nah. Changes to convergence I can get behind, but CoF is just a way of taking one skill out of the equation, and doesn't add skill in any way.

[Hotthedd]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Lolololol. "I'm not insulting your skill: It's just something akin to what trained pigeons can do!"

Get over yourself, dude. You want a game with a cone of fire? Find one where the devs aren't adamantly against it. To you, twitch-aiming isn't an important skill. But to the developers of this game, it is an important skill.

Do I want a game where I can peek my head over a hill without it getting blown off instantaneously? Of course I do, and so does PGI. But I will never, ever advocate for a game where RNG determines whether I hit my target or not. That breeds the kind of frustration that will drive players away in droves.

The "cone of fire" would ONLY apply to Alpha strikes. Chain-fired weapons would still hit the reticle.

Therefore, if you do not want cone of fire, don't alpha strike.

Problem solved.

[Vespere Dax]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Lolololol. "I'm not insulting your skill: It's just something akin to what trained pigeons can do!"

Get over yourself, dude. You want a game with a cone of fire? Find one where the devs aren't adamantly against it. To you, twitch-aiming isn't an important skill. But to the developers of this game, it is an important skill.

Do I want a game where I can peek my head over a hill without it getting blown off instantaneously? Of course I do, and so does PGI. But I will never, ever advocate for a game where RNG determines whether I hit my target or not. That breeds the kind of frustration that will drive players away in droves.

And right now the META isn't? Do you realize that matchmaking times are getting longer and longer. People don't want to play MWO of Duty. The problem is not even convergence Mack it's boating.

Here's the scenero. Forest Colony. I have 6 ERPPCs on my stalker. I creep over the hill on the west overlooking the village. At 3x zoom I see a spider capping theta. I switch my mouse to snipe more and line him up. Boom, his leg is gone. I've overheated but I don't care cause he's dead ( or soon will be).

How much skill did i just display?

Edited by Vespere Dax, 19 June 2013 - 08:17 AM.