18 replies to this topic

[Disapirro]

So many issues, big and small, it is difficult to know what are symptomatic vs. root cause to the overall game imbalance. This is my perspective on what I think the big ones are that currently hurt the experience the most.

Low Diversity of mechs/builds: This game needs weight class balancing in a bad way, and I believe this is more important than trying to segregate the players by skill. It is making for a very minimalist experience and I think we can do better. Drop ELO system or modify it to create teams of 2:2:2:2 (light, medium, heavy, assault), 3:3:3:3 with new 12 man teams. Alternatively, there could be other standard mixes like in today’s military, e.g. a cavalry unit mix would be 4:4:2:2, a heavy main assault mix would be 2:2:4:4. At the very minimum, I would be for bringing back the old system before ELO, i.e. bring a medium and the other team gets a medium; bring a heavy and the other team gets a heavy, etc.

Organized teams vs. PUGs: This is quite possibly the biggest problem with the game from a casual gamer perspective. No way can a PUG team compete against an organized or semi-organized team in most cases. Organized teams should be in a separate queue from PUGs. In-game voice being implemented would help some, but I recommend these groups always being separate. Even two organized players on one of the teams can severely tip the balance.

High alpha and pinpoint convergence: We all know that this is a problem, so fix it already. Many good ideas out there, but my harebrained idea is to make the convergence point larger. I have no idea what the current size of the convergence point is, size of a quarter or smaller maybe, but increase it to, oh I don’t know, maybe a meter or two. With this larger point have it sectioned into zones that the weapons hit dependent on where it is located on the firing mech. This would cause some of the weapons to hit on different sections of the target, or miss completely if trying to aim for anything but dead center. Might look something like this:

• Arm mounted convergence area could have two points: right arm, left arm
  
• Torso mounted convergence could have six points: upper left torso, lower left torso, upper middle torso, lower middle torso, upper right torso, lower right torso.

For any that have posted/read similar ideas or threads, my apologies. Too little time, too much effort to scrub/search through the archives to ensure we are not rehashing.

[Frisk]

Personally feel this is the most balanced the game has been.

[Lynx7725]

Personally, I think the most imbar thing in MWO is these forums. Some things in there need to be hit with a nerf bat badly. Or just a bat, badly.

[Taemien]

Disapirro, on 19 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

So many issues, big and small, it is difficult to know what are symptomatic vs. root cause to the overall game imbalance. This is my perspective on what I think the big ones are that currently hurt the experience the most.

Low Diversity of mechs/builds: This game needs weight class balancing in a bad way, and I believe this is more important than trying to segregate the players by skill. It is making for a very minimalist experience and I think we can do better. Drop ELO system or modify it to create teams of 2:2:2:2 (light, medium, heavy, assault), 3:3:3:3 with new 12 man teams. Alternatively, there could be other standard mixes like in today’s military, e.g. a cavalry unit mix would be 4:4:2:2, a heavy main assault mix would be 2:2:4:4. At the very minimum, I would be for bringing back the old system before ELO, i.e. bring a medium and the other team gets a medium; bring a heavy and the other team gets a heavy, etc.

The fix to this is make Medium mechs a threat. But this is a topic that is taboo except to like two people in this community. Lower the profiles of Medium mechs and make them nearly as agile as lights (in turning, acceleration, deceleration, and torso twist). This would make them much harder to hit at long and close ranges.

Making restrictions on weight just punishes the poor newbie who bought an Atlas because he thought it looked cool. Remember, cadets only really get enough to buy a single mech. Lets find solutions that don't punish them with queue times.

Quote

Organized teams vs. PUGs: This is quite possibly the biggest problem with the game from a casual gamer perspective. No way can a PUG team compete against an organized or semi-organized team in most cases. Organized teams should be in a separate queue from PUGs. In-game voice being implemented would help some, but I recommend these groups always being separate. Even two organized players on one of the teams can severely tip the balance.

Wasn't a problem in 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001, nor 2009. Why is it a problem now? Most players in previous titles sought out games hosted by organized players in order to get recruited. Only the super super casual wouldn't do this and they were fine with filling in the gaps for both teams. We had voice comms back then as well, it was BattleCom and RogerWilco.

What changed?

The solution here is to simply group up. This will be made easy with the lobby system coming up. Then you should have no problems with premades as you'll have your own. Asking the devs to fix a problem you can fix yourselves is both asinine and selfish, not to mention a bit egocentric. This is very much a player issue and not a mechanic one. The community can fix this one themselves. MWLL's community did it. There was no tutorial in the mod as the devs couldn't devote time to making one. So the community set up their own training courses. When private matches come out, use them to do this.

Stop it with the me me me BS. Help your fellow player and leave the Devs alone about this.

Quote

High alpha and pinpoint convergence: We all know that this is a problem, so fix it already. Many good ideas out there, but my harebrained idea is to make the convergence point larger. I have no idea what the current size of the convergence point is, size of a quarter or smaller maybe, but increase it to, oh I don’t know, maybe a meter or two. With this larger point have it sectioned into zones that the weapons hit dependent on where it is located on the firing mech. This would cause some of the weapons to hit on different sections of the target, or miss completely if trying to aim for anything but dead center. Might look something like this:
Arm mounted convergence area could have two points: right arm, left arm
Torso mounted convergence could have six points: upper left torso, lower left torso, upper middle torso, lower middle torso, upper right torso, lower right torso.
For any that have posted/read similar ideas or threads, my apologies. Too little time, too much effort to scrub/search through the archives to ensure we are not rehashing.

The only thing I support as far as this topic goes is (ER)PPCs getting a slight heat nerf (increase by 1-2), and a velocity nerf. Pinpoint is apart of MechWarrior. Again I didn't see these complaints in 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001, or 2009. So how the heck is a problem now? This is like someone complaining that they got headshot by someone from behind a cubicle wall in Counterstrike. Its part of the game. Its part of the franchise.

The games you are seeking are MechCommander and Blender BattleTech for your convergence fixes.

Edited by Taemien, 19 June 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Sassori]

Taemien, on 19 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

The fix to this is make Medium mechs a threat. But this is a topic that is taboo except to like two people in this community. Lower the profiles of Medium mechs and make them nearly as agile as lights (in turning, acceleration, deceleration, and torso twist). This would make them much harder to hit at long and close ranges.

Making restrictions on weight just punishes the poor newbie who bought an Atlas because he thought it looked cool. Remember, cadets only really get enough to buy a single mech. Lets find solutions that don't punish them with queue times.



Wasn't a problem in 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001, nor 2009. Why is it a problem now? Most players in previous titles sought out games hosted by organized players in order to get recruited. Only the super super casual wouldn't do this and they were fine with filling in the gaps for both teams. We had voice comms back then as well, it was BattleCom and RogerWilco.

What changed?

The solution here is to simply group up. This will be made easy with the lobby system coming up. Then you should have no problems with premades as you'll have your own. Asking the devs to fix a problem you can fix yourselves is both asinine and selfish, not to mention a bit egocentric. This is very much a player issue and not a mechanic one. The community can fix this one themselves. MWLL's community did it. There was no tutorial in the mod as the devs couldn't devote time to making one. So the community set up their own training courses. When private matches come out, use them to do this.

Stop it with the me me me BS. Help your fellow player and leave the Devs alone about this.



The only thing I support as far as this topic goes is (ER)PPCs getting a slight heat nerf (increase by 1-2), and a velocity nerf. Pinpoint is apart of MechWarrior. Again I didn't see these complaints in 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001, or 2009. So how the heck is a problem now? This is like someone complaining that they got headshot by someone from behind a cubicle wall in Counterstrike. Its part of the game. Its part of the franchise.

The games you are seeking are MechCommander and Blender BattleTech for your convergence fixes.

*applies nerfbat to this kind of idiocy* The game is not fine. It needs fixes. Quit acting like it's perfect. The fact that they are charging people /money/ for things, in a beta, and just keep throwing stuff out for /money/ is an indicator of the kind of sickness going on behind the scenes.

Convergence and pin point accuracy are one of the /biggest/ flaws to this whole entire game. Speed means nothing with pin point accuracy, which is what is promoting all the heavy's and assaults.

I don't know how /anyone/ could think the game is fine when mechs are evaporating in 2.5 seconds.

[PEEFsmash]

None of these problems are really balance problems, hate to say it.

The balance problems are:
SRMs far too weak.
SSRMs hitting only CT.
Hitbox size issues on various mechs (Centurion and Stalker hitboxes too good, Jenner, Dragon, Awesome hitboxes too bad).
Hit detection.
PPC heat too low.
Seismic Sensor completely stupidly overpowered.
Light and Medium speed/maneuverability too low.
Laser heat a bit too high.
Jumpjet shake far too extreme, should be removed or almost nothing for lights/mediums.
That's about it.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 June 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 19 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

None of these problems are really balance problems, hate to say it.

The balance problems are:
SRMs far too weak.
SSRMs hitting only CT.
Hitbox size issues on various mechs (Centurion and Stalker hitboxes too good, Jenner, Dragon, Awesome hitboxes too bad).
Hit detection.
PPC heat too low.
Seismic Sensor completely stupidly overpowered.
Light and Medium speed/maneuverability too low.
Laser heat a bit too high.
Jumpjet shake far too extreme, should be removed or almost nothing for lights/mediums.
That's about it.

I'll agree with this assesment. Only additional is that higher PPC heat alone won't do too much to discourage the peek+shoot meta we've got going.
I'd vote for a velocity nerf as well on standard PPCs from 2000 to 1300 or so, roughly similar to the AC/10. ERPPCs can stay where they are since to use them at their inteded ranges they need that projectile velocity, give them a little extra heat also.

Shake reduction for lights/mediums is fine, reduction for heavy/assault is un-necessary, it's still quite easy to poptart. Meds/lights need reduction so they can aim at moderate ranges with lasers, and also light/mediums aren't the chassis that were causing the poptart issues.

Edited by One Medic Army, 19 June 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Victor Morson]

If that's all your problems, I envy you.

ER Large needs massive overhauls to beam duration, damage falloff, and range.
LRMs still need to be pushed to 1.2
AMS needs a slight range reduction to hurt the effectiveness of "AMS Clusters"
Med+Large Pulse need work. (Now they need radical stat AND duration changes)
SRMs need that true 2.0 push ASAP.
Airstrikes are still hilarious (and sad)
Artillery Strikes Same as Airstrikes
NARCs are a sick joke made worse by the fact they don't stack bonuses with Artemis, which every missile 'mech ever will have
AC/10 and LBX/10 both need major ROF and velocity buffs, as they are incredibly underpowered at the moment and not worth taking.
AC/20 could use a small buff to make it more useful when there is only one of them, possibly to velocity.
Machine Guns were buffed but still suck. They need way more DPS than a Small Laser to justify their other drawbacks, as burst fire weapons are far superior in general.
Flamers also continue to suck, but are moving in the right direction. Very, very slowly.

Seismic needs that weight-based range reduction, I agree

Weight Restrictions still badly need to happen because the "quick death syndrome" is never going to stop as long as 80% of the force on the field are running assaults.

One Medic Army, on 19 June 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I'll agree with this assesment. Only additional is that higher PPC heat alone won't do too much to discourage the peek+shoot meta we've got going.

You know what would stop it without nerfing anything? Buffing the freaking brawling weapons. Make medium arrays, LPL, SRM, LBX or AC/10, etc. vastly superior and the problem resolves itself.

[One Medic Army]

Victor Morson, on 19 June 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

You know what would stop it without nerfing anything? Buffing the freaking brawling weapons. Make medium arrays, LPL, SRM, LBX or AC/10, etc. vastly superior and the problem resolves itself.

Nope.
Doesn't matter how good the brawling weapons are if you're dead or near-dead before you get there.

[Disapirro]

PEEFsmash, on 19 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

None of these problems are really balance problems, hate to say it.

The balance problems are:
SRMs far too weak.
SSRMs hitting only CT.
Hitbox size issues on various mechs (Centurion and Stalker hitboxes too good, Jenner, Dragon, Awesome hitboxes too bad).
Hit detection.
PPC heat too low.
Seismic Sensor completely stupidly overpowered.
Light and Medium speed/maneuverability too low.
Laser heat a bit too high.
Jumpjet shake far too extreme, should be removed or almost nothing for lights/mediums.
That's about it.

What would they be then, non issues, or just issues of another type?

[DocBach]

PEEFsmash, on 19 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

None of these problems are really balance problems, hate to say it.

The balance problems are:
SRMs far too weak.
SSRMs hitting only CT.
Hitbox size issues on various mechs (Centurion and Stalker hitboxes too good, Jenner, Dragon, Awesome hitboxes too bad).
Hit detection.
PPC heat too low.
Seismic Sensor completely stupidly overpowered.
Light and Medium speed/maneuverability too low.
Laser heat a bit too high.
Jumpjet shake far too extreme, should be removed or almost nothing for lights/mediums.
That's about it.

I agree with this, but in conjunction with a scaling convergence system that allows a maximum point to where you weapons converge based on combat conditions such as your speed/range/heat. Running full out at long range at high heat should make pinpoint convergence impossible, so while firing a group of weapons will hit the target, the damage is not all concentrated to one location.

[Taemien]

Christopher Dayson, on 19 June 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

*applies nerfbat to this kind of idiocy* The game is not fine. It needs fixes. Quit acting like it's perfect. The fact that they are charging people /money/ for things, in a beta, and just keep throwing stuff out for /money/ is an indicator of the kind of sickness going on behind the scenes.

Convergence and pin point accuracy are one of the /biggest/ flaws to this whole entire game. Speed means nothing with pin point accuracy, which is what is promoting all the heavy's and assaults.

I don't know how /anyone/ could think the game is fine when mechs are evaporating in 2.5 seconds.

Never said the game was fine. You're either putting words into my mouth and making more out of what I commented towards then what I actually said in order to avoid debating those issues directly, or you're just being a dooshbag (other word is censored). You even quoted where I said some fixes are needed (my first and last paragraph) . So I think you need to take another look at what I said.

But as others have said, there is other areas where the game can be fixed to help bring it in line. Convergence and Teamplay do not need to be touched while the other issues aren't.

[Rashhaverak]

Perhaps instead of adding damage to weapons they should be reduced. Maybe the reason that the devs didn't buff SRMs yet is that they think that SRMs are okay, and the other weapons are too high. Maybe the devs think that mechs are dying too quickly, or that matches are ending to quickly. Maybe instead of buffing SRMs, lasers and LRMs, the rest of the weapons will be nerfed. Balance doesn't mean that everything has to rise to an equivalent level, it can also fall to an equivalent level. After all, isn't one of the desirable differences between games like COD and Halo, when compared to MWO, the fact that you actually get to have more than 10 seconds of actual battle time? That you can battle for several whole minutes against your opponents? Today's current PPC alpha fest makes this game seem like, at times, more like getting one or two shotted with the 50 cal. than MechWarrior.

[PEEFsmash]

Disapirro, on 19 June 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

What would they be then, non issues, or just issues of another type?

Issues of another type in the case of the first two, and a non-issue in the case of convergence. Weapons should go where they are pointed.

DocBach, on 19 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I agree with this, but in conjunction with a scaling convergence system that allows a maximum point to where you weapons converge based on combat conditions such as your speed/range/heat. Running full out at long range at high heat should make pinpoint convergence impossible, so while firing a group of weapons will hit the target, the damage is not all concentrated to one location.

The problem builds are builds that shoot while standing still, like PPC stalkers, not mechs that shoot while running full speed, like brawlers, mediums, and lights. Brawlers, mediums, and lights, also spend tons of time shooting at high heat, whereas pinpoint snipers actually cool down quite a bit right before they shoot. Your proposed changes would actually make brawlers, mediums, and lights (currently the weakest groups) worse, and then would not really nerf the problem mechs, PPC stalker/Highlander/Atlas camping because they don't shoot when very hot (instead, they overheat on shots that themselves cause high heat) and they don't shoot when moving!

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 June 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Sheraf]

The bigger balance issue is that the game need a tutorial to show new players how to familiar with the use of weapon types, tactic and mech classes

[DocBach]

PEEFsmash, on 19 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Issues of another type in the case of the first two, and a non-issue in the case of convergence. Weapons should go where they are pointed.



The problem builds are builds that shoot while standing still, like PPC stalkers, not mechs that shoot while running full speed, like brawlers, mediums, and lights. Brawlers, mediums, and lights, also spend tons of time shooting at high heat, whereas pinpoint snipers actually cool down quite a bit right before they shoot. Your proposed changes would actually make brawlers, mediums, and lights (currently the weakest groups) worse, and then would not really nerf the problem mechs, PPC stalker/Highlander/Atlas camping because they don't shoot when very hot (instead, they overheat on shots that themselves cause high heat) and they don't shoot when moving!

If the amount convergence could converge was limited to the range profile of the weapon, standing still outside of the battle at long range would make group firing large weapons a bad choice - keeping single weapons pinpoint accuracy lets snipers still plink from the battle, but doesn't allow them to fire everything they have at a single spot.

Player's movement speed and weapon range determine how tight the reticule converges, moving or being outside of optimal range (not max range) opens the reticule. Speed of the enemy combined with heat level determines how quickly the reticule converges once an enemy 'Mech is selected an targeted, as the targeting computer needs targeting data on how to calculate putting all of the 'Mechs guns on the enemy 'Mech.

[PEEFsmash]

DocBach, on 19 June 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

If the amount convergence could converge was limited to the range profile of the weapon, standing still outside of the battle at long range would make group firing large weapons a bad choice - keeping single weapons pinpoint accuracy lets snipers still plink from the battle, but doesn't allow them to fire everything they have at a single spot.

Player's movement speed and weapon range determine how tight the reticule converges, moving or being outside of optimal range (not max range) opens the reticule. Speed of the enemy combined with heat level determines how quickly the reticule converges once an enemy 'Mech is selected an targeted, as the targeting computer needs targeting data on how to calculate putting all of the 'Mechs guns on the enemy 'Mech.

Yeah...so reread my last post.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 June 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Disapirro, on 19 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Organized teams vs. PUGs: This is quite possibly the biggest problem with the game from a casual gamer perspective. No way can a PUG team compete against an organized or semi-organized team in most cases.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 19 June 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[DocBach]

PEEFsmash, on 19 June 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Yeah...so reread my last post.

As shooting errors are angular, having larger convergence affects targets less at close range, especially when the proposed system rewards a player for being in his weapon's optimal range, so brawlers would be less affected, unless they are trying to brawl with ill-suited weapons with minimum ranges.