62 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Sybreed, on 20 June 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

there are no skills in this game, it's simply point and shoot. Hell, it's harder to aim in a game like CoD than MWO. I would hardly think anyone is more skilled than me in a similar mech and loadout.

Positioning, facing, damage distribution and locational damage.

Otto Cannon, on 20 June 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

I don't think that's a fair or realistic portrayal at all. What about a Dragon firing well aimed shots at vital locations and running rings around an assault who tries to respond with 'shaky, poorly coordinated' chainfire? You're trying to bias your description by bringing in pilot skill that has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue you're discussing.

But that's the odd assumption everyone makes. Why is your precious 'mech going to retain it's ability to accurately fire while every 'mech you don't like will suddenly eat huge convergence penalties?

The reality of the situation is that you will have just as much screwed up convergence as they do, but their guns are bigger than yours and in greater number, giving even more chances to hit you than you have to hit them. That's really the end of the argument.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[Otto Cannon]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Positioning, facing, damage distribution and locational damage.



But that's the odd assumption everyone makes. Why is your precious 'mech going to retain it's ability to accurately fire while every 'mech you don't like will suddenly eat huge convergence penalties?

The reality of the situation is that you will have just as much screwed up convergence as they do, but their guns are bigger than yours and in greater number, giving even more chances to hit you than you have to hit them. That's really the end of the argument.

No, it's you who was making that assumption that your precious assault would be the accurate one. Your example specifically stated a situation where the mechs are both firing individual weapons instead of groupfiring- which means that convergence would not affect accuracy at all. Convergence only affects group fired weapons.

Edit: To be clear btw, I actually agree that we should have tonnage limits. I just think we should also have proper convergence mechanics to reduce the pinpoint alpha issue and give assaults less of an overwhelming firepower advantage. I think more weapons and armour would be offset better by a lack of speed and maneuverability when you can't just one-shot any lighter and faster opponent.

Edited by Otto Cannon, 21 June 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I would be happy to arrange a series of duels with any of my best people and you on the condition that I we can record it and post it in any thread we wish after; of course you are welcome to do the same. It won't be pretty, at all. It won't say anything about you as a pilot, because like I said, if you're going into the game with this mindset you've already lost before you even get a target lock.

We've taken on more than a few pilots with your mindset, got them to run proper builds, and their damage effectively skyrockets 3x or more.



A min/max pilot of equal skill will always obliterate a sub-optimal, let alone Fraken, build pilot of equal skill in a one on one fight. A team running min/max builds will always beat a team with sub-optimal builds, and will always outright embarrass a team with Franken builds.

There is just no getting around it.

EDIT: PM me if your interested. We could make it best of 5 or something so I could send multiple pilots, just to take that out of the way. I'd trust every one of my guys to obliterate a frakenbuild with even a more experienced pilot in it.

"Your best people"?

How about you? You're the one making the arguments.

Also, how do you propose to do 1v1 fights considering there's no 1v1 mode right now?

And lastly, I never argued that in a straight 1v1 fight a minmaxer would lose. In fact, I believe my exact words were: "You're perspective of combat only takes into account a full on frontal attack. Of course a medium is going to be inferior in that situation.". However, it's rarely ever the case on the battlefield. My point is and has been from the start that I can drop in any of my 'frankenmechs' or 'sub optimal' builds or whatever you want to call it and still do extremely well, contribute to my team, get kills and have a blast. I believe my matches are not in the low elo bracket (edit: that being said, I don't consider myself 'elite' or anything either), considering the amount of minmaxers that I do regularly see and the fact that most of the time matches are not 8/0's or similar and are usually quite well fought, even with all the boring builds on the field at the moment.

Put me in one of your 8 man's vs another of your 8 man's in proper combat and then you'll see my worth. Of course if you drop me in a 1v1 Treb against a 4PPC Stalker I'm going to likely get my *** handed to me (although I have beaten them before).

Edited by Pater Mors, 20 June 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

"Your best people"?

How about you? You're the one making the arguments.

Sure. I was planning on being one of them, and I'm not even a typical medium pilot. Unless you want to prove how effectively you can take on heavies/assaults, I'd be happy to field one of those.

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Also, how do you propose to do 1v1 fights considering there's no 1v1 mode right now?

Sync drop 8 mans and let everyone watch the fun.

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

And lastly, I never argued that in a straight 1v1 fight a minmaxer would lose. In fact, I believe my exact words were: "You're perspective of combat only takes into account a full on frontal attack.

Attack 3 Stalkers and 2 Highlanders from the rear and you'll win? Sides? Top? Bottom? What possible angle and situation does a medium have a snowball's chance in hell of doing anything remotely worthwhile unless they all scatter and don't cover each other? Are you saying relying on people's in inability to work as a team is a way to balance this?

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Of course a medium is going to be inferior in that situation.". However, it's rarely ever the case on the battlefield. My point is and has been from the start that I can drop in any of my 'frankenmechs' or 'sub optimal' builds or whatever you want to call it and still do extremely well, contribute to my team, get kills and have a blast.

Against terrible people in terrible 'mechs, sure. That's fine if that's all you want to do, to casually enjoy the game that is there. It doesn't mean you have good perspective on how the balance actually works.

The irony is my insistence on weight limits would greatly improve the kind of gameplay you're looking for, so I'm shocked you're against it.

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

I believe my matches are not in the low elo bracket, considering the amount of minmaxers that I do regularly see and the fact that most of the time matches are not 8/0's or similar and are usually quite well fought, even with all the boring builds on the field at the moment.

ELO is very bad about dragging 2-3 cross-score people into every match. Every now and then you'll run across a Trial 'mech in a clash of titans and it's always really wince inducing to watch it go down in a crossfire in about 2 seconds.

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Put me in one of your 8 man's vs another of your 8 man's in proper combat and then you'll see my worth. Of course if you drop me in a 1v1 Treb against a 4PPC Stalker I'm going to likely get my *** handed to me (although I have beaten them before).

In organized 8 mans Frankenmech mediums get even worse; there's no room for mediums in unrestricted quick matches.

In League Play mediums are freaking awesome, because there are in fact weight restrictions. If you've gotten a taste of MW:O in tonnage balanced games, it is a night and day difference with way, way more possibilities. But a sub-optimal one is just bringing the whole team down needlessly.

I will be honest, I don't think you're probably a bad pilot Pater. You've just tried to play the game you wish MW:O were instead of the game it is. If you swapped to some optimal builds for a week, I honestly think it would blow your mind.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 08:00 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Victor, you even said yourself in your posts. It would make it SLOWER. So people won't die as fast, isn't that a good thing? To extend matches past 2 minutes?

There is also more to these ideas. I'm not talking convergence necessarily, but heat thresholds/heat sink revamp, re-balancing least used weapons, re-featuring mechanics of certain weapon types and equipment, etc. The whole-kit-and-kabootle since there are sooo many problem area's at the moment that drives the 'meta' towards the least variety possible.

[Victor Morson]

General Taskeen, on 20 June 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Victor, you even said yourself in your posts. It would make it SLOWER. So people won't die as fast, isn't that a good thing? To extend matches past 2 minutes?

I really enjoy slower paced matches, for sure. I loved the hour limit in MW4. I'm not one of those "fast matches everywhere!" people.

But slowing the matches down while maintaining the exact same damage/durability to scale, which is all that would accomplish, doesn't really do much to add depth or strategy. It just means the biggest 'mechs hit with the biggest guns more often instead of in bursts.

[FireSlade]

While I love the idea of a weight limit it will probably kill MW:O. Wait times will become very long as everyone will still take their assault and heavies fixing nothing. It will not effect PUGs where there is an issue but it does effect 4-man and 8-man drops. There needs to be some sort of incentive to piloting medium mechs other than lower purchase prices. Until then nothing will happen to change the meta.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Re: "Frankenmechs" ... I have seen some really great pilots do some amazing things with a mixed weapon build ... the most impressive was a DRG with (I think) 1x AC/5, 2x ML, and 1x LRM-10 ... he was the last on our team, with a CTF and CN9 on theirs. However, pilots able to manage three different types of weapons, two types of ammo, and heat; use terrain, speed and facing all to their advantage, and take out two mechs that most would consider superior, are exceptionally rare.

For most of us (myself included) the game is already pretty complex without adding to that with a complex build.

I agree with the OP in that we need tonnage limits for organized play ... PUG drops will probably be too hard, but in order to keep Community Warfare from becoming stagnant and give players more choices, it needs to have some kind of tonnage restriction.

[Artgathan]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Like every game, there's a ton of really awful, dumb ideas that are reactionary at the bottom. The people at the bottom are greatly benefited by the best of the best offering their input on balance first.

It's funny because the OP's suggestion is just as reactionary. There's too much tonnage in games? Nerf tonnage!

A better solution would be giving lower tonnage mechs a reason to exist - conquest mode does this a bit (though the small map sizes tend to make mobility meaningless). I think we'll see more mediums appearing later on when we see Attack / Defend Base missions with CW and the need for mobility becomes more important.

Right now tonnage is supreme because the most frequent (and possibly most powerful) strategy is the clump o' death. But what happens when you force the clump to break apart?

[Victor Morson]

FireSlade, on 20 June 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

While I love the idea of a weight limit it will probably kill MW:O. Wait times will become very long as everyone will still take their assault and heavies fixing nothing. It will not effect PUGs where there is an issue but it does effect 4-man and 8-man drops. There needs to be some sort of incentive to piloting medium mechs other than lower purchase prices. Until then nothing will happen to change the meta.

Lobbies are coming, and lobbies are the answer to this. I don't mind if there's unrestricted quick matches still in the game, but when UI 2.0 rolls out if there aren't weight limit-based lobbies, it will be a huge, huge problem.

If there are, well then, everyone wins.

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Sure. I was planning on being one of them, and I'm not even a typical medium pilot. Unless you want to prove how effectively you can take on heavies/assaults, I'd be happy to field one of those.

I'm happy to take you on in anything you want to drop in.

Quote

Sync drop 8 mans and let everyone watch the fun.

Fair enough.

Quote

Attack 3 Stalkers and 2 Highlanders from the rear and you'll win? Sides? Top? Bottom? What possible angle and situation does a medium have a snowball's chance in hell of doing anything remotely worthwhile unless they all scatter and don't cover each other? Are you saying relying on people's in inability to work as a team is a way to balance this?

I'm hardly going to be attacking by myself and chances are they are going to be busy. You are simplifying combat way too much to fit your own points.

Quote

Against terrible people in terrible 'mechs, sure. That's fine if that's all you want to do, to casually enjoy the game that is there. It doesn't mean you have good perspective on how the balance actually works.

I have a good perspective on how my mech's handle, how my weapons and tactics work and how changes to the game will effect them. That is what allows me to have a reasonable perspective on how balance works.

Quote

The irony is my insistence on weight limits would greatly improve the kind of gameplay you're looking for, so I'm shocked you're against it.

I'm not and the fact that you think I am shows that you're glossing things over to push your own points:

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

I agree that we do need a better matchmaking system, but it's not the core problem of this game.

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Your black and white opinions on the matter of tonnage disparity in combat are incorrect. You might be right that there are too many big mechs stomping around and too many min/max builds, but if you can't deal with it without resorting to min/maxing yourself then you're just not a very good pilot.

Quote

ELO is very bad about dragging 2-3 cross-score people into every match. Every now and then you'll run across a Trial 'mech in a clash of titans and it's always really wince inducing to watch it go down in a crossfire in about 2 seconds.

Yes, I know. Elo is not the best system to be using in a random team based game.

Quote

In organized 8 mans Frankenmech mediums get even worse; there's no room for mediums in unrestricted quick matches.

In League Play mediums are freaking awesome, because there are in fact weight restrictions. If you've gotten a taste of MW:O in tonnage balanced games, it is a night and day difference with way, way more possibilities. But a sub-optimal one is just bringing the whole team down needlessly.

I will be honest, I don't think you're probably a bad pilot Pater. You've just tried to play the game you wish MW:O were instead of the game it is. If you swapped to some optimal builds for a week, I honestly think it would blow your mind.

I've run optimal builds and once again, I've never said that they were not any good. They're called optimal for a reason. What I've said is it's possible to play and be successful without them. I ran my 733P as a 2x PPC 1x Gauss for a long while. It's boring, despite the damage. My highest damage has actually been in a 'sub-optimal' 733C with 2x UAC5's, 2x LL's and 2x SSRM's and that was well over 1000 in a great match that came right down to the last minute and ended with 2v1 (Atlas and Pult) against me. I still managed to pull the win by the skin of my teeth. How do you explain that? Clearly the skill levels in that match were very close to equal and both sides had minmaxers.

I've also run the 733C with UAC's and PPC's. Again, gets boring quickly.

Edited by Pater Mors, 20 June 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 20 June 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Re: "Frankenmechs" ... I have seen some really great pilots do some amazing things with a mixed weapon build ... the most impressive was a DRG with (I think) 1x AC/5, 2x ML, and 1x LRM-10 ... he was the last on our team, with a CTF and CN9 on theirs.

I always use this analogy but just because you could maybe kill someone using a powdered loaded rifle, it doesn't mean you should ever take one over an M-16.

That weapon loadout made me facepalm IRL, though. Are you serious? A stock Dragon did something useful in a pug game so now Frakenmechs are justifiable?

EDIT: Alright Petar, I have an even better idea. We're going to be hosting a 1v1 tournament this coming weekend with luck (We're going to announce it officially soon) and I can think of no better venue to handle this. I'll make sure to drop you a PM here.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[Trev Firestorm]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

I really enjoy slower paced matches, for sure. I loved the hour limit in MW4. I'm not one of those "fast matches everywhere!" people.

But slowing the matches down while maintaining the exact same damage/durability to scale, which is all that would accomplish, doesn't really do much to add depth or strategy. It just means the biggest 'mechs hit with the biggest guns more often instead of in bursts.

There is one point you seem to be missing on this, forcing those high alphas to turn to slower output chainfire gives the faster mechs a better opportunity to use terrain to slow the incoming dps while affecting their own dps by a lower margin. No matter whats changed a medium vs an assault is going to require the medium to work harder as it doenst have the margin of error an assault does in that sort of one on one.

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

EDIT: Alright Petar, I have an even better idea. We're going to be hosting a 1v1 tournament this coming weekend with luck (We're going to announce it officially soon) and I can think of no better venue to handle this. I'll make sure to drop you a PM here.

I'll try my best to get involved but I don't get much time to play lately. Usually only an hour or two per day after 6pm. Also depends on the time zone as I am in Australia.

But that still isn't going to prove much. All it proves is that in a vacuum, minmaxing is better than variety which is obvious.

[HighlandCoo]

Victor is actually making a very well reasoned argument, and he's doing it without yelling or being rude which is to be applauded.

However I'd say that the assumption that you are in "the high ELO" and thus are more qualified to say what makes the game fun for all - we are here for fun yes? Not as a profession? Is probably incorrect. You don't have access to your ELO score so you cannot say what it is.

I'd also sugggest that basing your opinion of your and your friends "skill" at an online shooter which has been plagued with balance issues, not least of which only recently reliably allowed people to even hit each other, is perhaps a bit hasty.

With regards to Victors points - Will it be fun? Thats the acid test for me, and my personal opinion is that I would have more fun without running into massive alpha builds. They really take away from what I think makes mech combat exciting - positioning, systems management, damage distribution and so on. Whats the answer? I have no idea, because im not a professional games designer.

Are you?

Edited by HighlandCoo, 20 June 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

That weapon loadout made me facepalm IRL, though. Are you serious? A stock Dragon did something useful in a pug game so now Frakenmechs are justifiable?

Yes, I'm serious ... It wasn't "stock" ... it was upgraded (DHS and XL engine at a minimum, in my estimation) ... and, for most players, No, right now, they're not justifiable.

The pilot was absolutely amazing. I have a feeling that in any mech with good maneuverability, he would have been similarly incredible to watch.

However, if weight limits do get imposed in organized play, it think a well-disciplined group of Frankenmechs could be viable.

Today, unless those Frankenmechs are assaults, you're limiting your chances for success.

[SuperJoe]

it sucks how kinda truethis is. If they don't add a weight limit/battle value system, even if they do have heat penalties it's still going to be about the biggest baddest mechs with the biggest baddies guns.

Mediums and lower tonage heavies are always going to be left in the dust

[FunkyFritter]

I don't see why it would be impossible to make mediums competitive with assaults. Suppose mediums had their turn rates improved by 20% across the board and the turn speeds of assaults were halved, suddenly that almighty stalker can't bring its guns to bear and is a sitting duck without support from more maneuverable mechs. Enforcing weight limits so people can't play what they want isn't the solution, if you want to see more weight diversity make it have a bigger impact on how fast the mech can move.

[TehSBGX]

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

I'm happy to take you on in anything you want to drop in.

I'll join you. I'm pretty meh and my builds tend to be wonky.

Edited by TehSBGX, 20 June 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[Pater Mors]

FunkyFritter, on 20 June 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

I don't see why it would be impossible to make mediums competitive with assaults. Suppose mediums had their turn rates improved by 20% across the board and the turn speeds of assaults were halved, suddenly that almighty stalker can't bring its guns to bear and is a sitting duck without support from more maneuverable mechs. Enforcing weight limits so people can't play what they want isn't the solution, if you want to see more weight diversity make it have a bigger impact on how fast the mech can move.

That's still a very small solution. It just ends up with the blob mentality being enforced more.

FWIW I do agree with Victor that the matchmaker needs a massive overhaul. A match with balanced weights is more in line with a tactically diverse game and the premise of a 'thinking man's shooter'. I just don't agree that it's the holy grail of balance fixes.