82 replies to this topic

[Felbombling]

Does anybody else get the sinking feeling that the PGI development team doesn’t really appreciate exactly what Clan technology will bring to the game? I mean, the community has been trumpeting long and loud the pitfalls of the current heat system and weapon convergence, and yet the solution that Paul’s investigation into heavy weapon boating resulted in was a stacking heat penalty that flies in the face of logic. The only Mech configuration that penalty really hinders is the Stalker with six PPCs. The penalty system does nothing to curb the 3x PPC / Gauss Rifle Highlander, or similar configurations such as the 2x PPC / Gauss Rifle Cataphract 3D.

This apparent lack of forethought has prompted me to make this post, which I hope the community will participate in. I am calling on my fellow Beta testers to reveal their most vicious, nasty Clan Mech configurations early. I think we need to show PGI what exactly is around the corner. I will start off with the configuration I imagined while reading the stacking heat penalty post, where I just scratched my head wondering why they hadn't thought of this already.

Warhawk at 85 tons

Internal components

Internal Structure = 4.25 tons with 7 critical slots for endo-steel
Cockpit = 3 tons
Engine = 16.5 tons with 4 critical slots for a 340XL [2 per each side torso]
Heat sinks [21x double] = 11 tons and 16 critical slots [3 heat sinks within engine]
Gyro = 4 tons
Armour = 13.25 tons with 7 critical slots for ferro-fibrous armour

Weapons/Ammunition/Equipment

2x ER PPC = 12 tons and 4 critical slots
2x Large Pulse Laser = 12 tons and 4 critical slots
2x ER Large Laser = 8 tons and 2 critical slots
Active Probe = 1 ton and 1 critical slot

The first thing that jumps out is the 70 point alpha strike capabilities, at range, and the 21 double heat sinks the Mech carries. I cannot imagine that firing a pair of any heavy weapons will result in a stacking heat penalty, thus the three versions of heavy long-range weapons. It has good ground speed with the 340XL engine and, if needed for additional heat sinks, the engine could be downgraded to a 325XL. The chassis can support an additional double heat sink, bringing the total to 22. [Depending on arm actuators, there might be additional room for two more double heat sinks.] While the alpha strike has high heat, the load out provides excellent flexibility to handle high heat situations while the Mech cools off and waits for the next beautiful alpha strike opportunity.

I know this is a rather simple example, so I'd really love to see some of the other brutal game-bending Mech configurations I know you fine people have already dreamed up. I haven't even touched on Streaks, LRMs or the smaller Laser classes. I can already envision Mechs with 6x Medium Pulse Laser and 6x ER Medium Lasers, pushing out 84 damage alpha strikes that may or may not result in a stacking heat penalty. Not to be outdone by dual Ultra AC/20 builds, or Gauss Rifle possibilities of course.

Let’s shine a light on what the Meta game might look like when Clan technology becomes available, if the heat system and weapon convergence stay as is. I cannot imagine that too many mechs will be able to withstand the punishment for any length of time.

[Homeless Bill]

The stock Hunchback IIC scares the living **** out of me. 90-point alpha on a speedy midget with jumpjets? Pure cheese.

This is worse. Do. Not. Want. Dropping that to 8xUAC/2s, maxing out armor, increasing heat efficiency, and adding a couple backup weapons would make it absolutely unstoppable.

Edit: And, of course, my obligatory spam for how to fix it.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 21 June 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[CancR]

PGi doesn't know anything about MW expect when they take 10 minutes to Google something.

[Homeless Bill]

CancR, on 21 June 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

PGi doesn't know anything about MW expect when they take 10 minutes to Google something.

You are just full of constructive insight, aren't you?

[CancR]

I have been only to get 100+ likes then have a thread deleted.

[Lootee]

Lol. No need to create a new mech.

The Masakari Prime and Widowmaker Daishi are scary enough. The Ryoken with UAC/20 and 6 ERML could be nasty too. 97kph 82 pt alpha strike.

[Acid Phase]

Bill, I respect your dedication. Of course you have 120+ seals of approval. Patent it, and spam away on their ATDs and Twitter accounts. Your voice needs to be heard loud and clear. Now, I'm not saying it's a lost cause (given PGI's vagueness rep), but it won't hurt to try.

[Braggart]

I personally look forward to our new LRM overlords.

Clan LRM 20. 5 Tons, 4 Crit slots, and no minimum range.

Enjoy 120 LRMs in your face from 45 meters away. DEAD.

Mechs that can mount 3 UAC 20

Streak SRM 6.

complete Clan apocalypse. I personally dont want clan tech in the game. It will ruin any type of gameplay we have.

Oh also forgot my favorite 1

Clan ER Medium vs IS Large laser.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Large_laser 5 ton 8 damage 2 crit slot 8 Heat Identical ranges

http://www.sarna.net...ER_Medium_Laser 1 ton 7 damage 1 crit slot 5 Heat Identical ranges.


Oh, another great part Both ENDO and Ferro each take 7 slots for 14 total, instead of 28 like the IS, and Clan Ferro is better than IS ferro.

2 slot double heatsinks.

It is impossible to balance this stuff. PGI should have picked a more recent timeline where IS and Clan technologies are on a similar level, with IS ahead in a few areas, we would have multiple types of armor, better ACs and other lasers that would fill so many different freaking roles for all mechs.

Edited by Braggart, 21 June 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Blackadder]

Stock nova, with speed tweek around 94 KPH, 84 damage alpha strike, 18 clan DHS.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nova

Edited by Blackadder, 21 June 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[General Taskeen]

^And why do you think Clan Tech will be OP?

Well let's look at why:

UAC/5 programming -> Potential problems any IS and Clan UAC/2, UAC/10, UAC/20
Streaks programming, autobot aim -> Potential problems any IS and Clan SSRM4, SSRM6

Lrms probably.

Imagine a future RAC/2 or RAC/5 with the mechanic of "front loading damage weapons": RAC's fire 6x as fast, which PGI would 'interpret' as a burst of 6 two damage shells (12 damage, 3x as fast as UAC), or a RAC/5 as a burst of 6 five damage shells (30 Damage, 3x as fast as UAC)

So as we can see current balance problems OR Design Choices creates massive problems later. Its the snowball affect, and its not just those weapons. Its practically everything from ECM to Heat Sink implementation, and to an extent or fundamental rebalancing of LB 10-X, MGs, Flamers, and NARC.

"Clan Tech" is only perceived to be "op" by very obvious problems with the current "Balance Meta."

Edited by General Taskeen, 21 June 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Jasen]

CancR, on 21 June 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

I have been only to get 100+ likes then have a thread deleted.

It is simple to get a lot of likes, that don't mean the post was actually good.

Funny likes get the most... sometime, a rare stroke of luck will occur and people will want to prove this point by feverishly liking a completely random post... (like mine).

I will attempt to prove this point:

Gentlemen, bring on the like spam!

[NotEnoughDakkaDakka]

Kodiak with 13.5 tons of armor as opposed to 17, and Endo-Steel, but...

XL400 Engine, 26 DHS (!!!), and EIGHT ER LARGE LASERS.

In TT, it would overheat instantly, though it can fire up to half its arsenal safely with a very long range. In this, it'll be worse than a 6PPC Stalker in that it will do more damage (Probably 10 or 11 damage per laser) with 9.50-12 heat per laser, depending how they handle it.

Edited by NotEnoughDakkaDakka, 21 June 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[keith]

my current theory is they are playing with clan tech. and are nerfing IS tech without telling us how the clan tech is affecting game play. u know that 12v12 stuff and omg wtf clan tech OP. this is a horrible thing to do, keeping ppl in the dark who know what the IP has in store. we all know clans mean IS tech will get crushed. just tell us how it affects gameplay already.

[Braggart]

General Taskeen, on 21 June 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

"Clan Tech" is only perceived to be "op" by very obvious problems with the current "Balance Meta."

ummm clan tech was unbalanced in tabletop. They did it on purpose.

There was a reason you could field nearly twice as many mechs as your enemy in IS vs Clan matches.

That does not translate to MWO at all. Because clans still have weapons that will destroy a mech in seconds. Twice as many players does not remedy that. No one wants to pilot a IS mech only to get CT cored in seconds because you came out of cover. Everyone will simply want to roflstomp multiple enemies with ease. You can see it in the current meta where everyone focuses on the cheese, well Clan tech, not kraft is the cheesiest.

Without radical changes and basically curb stomping lore. You cannot balance Clan tech in a Competitive game.

Edited by Braggart, 21 June 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Novakaine]

There are no Clans.
The Clans are a myth.
The Clans do not exist.
You have been warned.
Fedcom MilSec

[Monky]

One thing a lot of people overlook for clans is that clan mechs had pod space. That means,a limited amount of tonnage available for actual weapons. Generally, those weapons could be anything within that limit however. Also - Clan mechs can't swap out XL/Standard engines IIRC.

For ***** and giggles; Dire Wolf has 50.5 tons free for weapons and is a full blown omnimech (no hard point type limitations conceivable - maybe hard point COUNT limitations, but anything should be able to go anywhere a weapon hard point is, crits permitting.)

Lets pretend we're using the primary configuration which has a minimum of 11 hardpoints.

I ended up with 2x ERPPC 2x Gauss for a 60 point alpha, 300 XL engine with MASC (allowing it to move like a 400 XL), 6 tons of Gauss ammo, and running cool on 20 double heatsinks with 70 heat capacity (can alpha twice before it has to cool down - capable of easily coring any assault in 2-3 hits, and can fire the Gauss no issues after the 2nd alpha, possibly an ERPPC, so you're looking at a 60/60/45 for a non shutdown fire, possibly 60/60/60/30 if the cooling is strong enough).

Basically, it's the 6x PPC stalker on crack. Additionally, the 'heat scaling' wont do anything to hurt it.

Heat capacity seriously needs to be reworked, it's just too powerful.

Edited by Monky, 21 June 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Yankee77]

See, the thing is that we KNOW that clan tech is overpowered. That's its POINT.

So yeah, if we fight clan forces under the same numbers and "Balancing" as we have now, clan wil win every time. They're totally OP and insane.

But do you really think this is how it's going to happen?

IF clan tech is not nerfed, then some other balancing element will be introduced. The most classic is numbers: 8 vs 12, or 10 vs 12. That can easily restore the balance.

In any case, SOMETHING will be in place to balance the two factions. They are NOT going to include clan tech without balancing it somehow. It's just not happening.

Thank you.

[Braggart]

Itkovian, on 21 June 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

See, the thing is that we KNOW that clan tech is overpowered. That's its POINT.

So yeah, if we fight clan forces under the same numbers and "Balancing" as we have now, clan wil win every time. They're totally OP and insane.

But do you really think this is how it's going to happen?

IF clan tech is not nerfed, then some other balancing element will be introduced. The most classic is numbers: 8 vs 12, or 10 vs 12. That can easily restore the balance.

In any case, SOMETHING will be in place to balance the two factions. They are NOT going to include clan tech without balancing it somehow. It's just not happening.

Thank you.

8 vs 12 will not restore balance. Clans will still have the edge and be able to kill mechs in seconds, 20 seconds into the fight and Clans will have killed half the team.

[Felbombling]

I respect your optimism, Itkovian, but even Clan vs. Clan play will prove to be brutal. My point was the convergence and alpha strike potential is plain as day, and yet we have suffered through the two core game mechanics since Closed Beta started. Will PGI curb Clan weapon damage and just leave tonnage and critical spaces as the advantage over Inner Sphere technology? Even if they stick like glue to the base chassis statistics, there is plenty of room to configure all kinds on monstrous load outs. In all honesty, people notice when they get hit... and sometimes one-shot... by a 45 point alpha strike. I cannot help but wonder if PGI has considered the game effects of 80, 90 or 100 point alpha strikes when it comes to weapon convergence and their current heat system.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

The clans are a terrible idea for this game. It's basically going to be a shred fest, where the point of the game is to get the first shot off.