79 replies to this topic

[senaiboy]

Nauht, on 23 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

NO to ppc changes.

They weren't changed in CB due to crappy hit detection. Remember that the GR is in the same boat as far as hit detection is concerned and everyone was using them, I mean everyone. And everyone was hitting with them just fine. Funny that.

There were calls to buff the PPC to make it more comparable with the GR so that you'd want to use the PPC instead of just running the GR.

So PGI did and it worked - you can now choose between the GR or PPC and you would do fine with either or both.

What the problem is, as others have already said, is the hardpoint system that allows for boating and pinpoint accuracy whilst on the move. You should be accurate when you're stationary and have taken careful aim.

How did PGI combat the GR problem in CB? They buffed a weapon to make it comparable.
To nerf a weapon just has a flow through effect to smaller mechs - just look at what nerfing SRM boats did to mediums and lights that could only carry 1 or 2 launchers.

I disagree. Compared to Gauss, PPC has unlimited ammo, good range, uses less slots (thus boating), faster travel speed, and even way lighter. I wasn't using PPC during CB (in my K2) because it's very difficult to land hits with them at range due to hit detection, not because Gauss is better.

The PPC is the better choice than any other weapon now. There needs to be a downside to it, if not everyone will just fit PPCs into whichever slot they can (dual PPC jenners, triple PPC hunchies, quad PPC Catapults, and hexa PPC Stalkers are abominations that should be banished forever).

I agree with the comment about SRMs though, but nerfing PPCs is not exactly the same because you mostly only see them in Heavy/Assault mechs in multiples of more than 2. And I'm sorry but if that means a Spider can't use a PPC efficiently that's not really a huge issue - on the contrary a Spider with PPC is exactly the result of this PPC imbalance.

Edited by senaiboy, 23 June 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[Nauht]

Unbound Inferno, on 23 June 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

The LPL 'fix' and the current state of PPC is just one piece of a very large puzzle that is making me question PGI's ability to 'balance' this game properly.

More inc for the pulse lasers - or didnt you read the game update?

[Nauht]

senaiboy, on 23 June 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

I disagree. Compared to Gauss, PPC has unlimited ammo, good range, uses less slots (thus boating), faster travel speed, and even way lighter. I wasn't using PPC during CB (in my K2) because it's very difficult to land hits with them at range due to hit detection, not because Gauss is better.

The PPC is the better choice than any other weapon now. There needs to be a downside to it, if not everyone will just fit PPCs into whichever slot they can (dual PPC jenners, triple PPC hunchies, quad PPC Catapults, and hexa PPC Stalkers are abominations that should be banished forever).

They're on the same ballistic mechanics. How can they be "dfferent"?

People were using GR exclusively cos of the heat and damage. Remember the arguments back then about how much tonnage the ppc needed to carry to make it even comparable dps wise to the GR? Or thye arguments about "how iconic" the ppc is to BT and yet no-one was using them.

Yeah that had nothing to do with how they hit and everything to do with heat and fire rate.

And I seriously doubt your claims about being in CB if you didnt notice the GR meta back then.

Buff other weapons to bring them up to par. Not nerf one and risk it becoming irrelevant to lighter mechs as SRMs have become

[Coralld]

Nauht, on 23 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

They're on the same ballistic mechanics. How can they be "dfferent"?

People were using GR exclusively cos of the heat and damage. Remember the arguments back then about how much tonnage the ppc needed to carry to make it even comparable dps wise to the GR? Or thye arguments about "how iconic" the ppc is to BT and yet no-one was using them.

Yeah that had nothing to do with how they hit and everything to do with heat and fire rate.

And I seriously doubt your claims about being in CB if you didnt notice the GR meta back then.

Buff other weapons to bring them up to par. Not nerf one and risk it becoming irrelevant to lighter mechs as SRMs have become

How can PPCs have hit detection issues more so then some of the other ballistic weapons you ask? Simple, its called net code shenanigans.

Also, you are wrong on the PPC vs GR debate. No one was complain about heat for the PPCs, what people were frustrated with was that the GR had better hit detection then PPCs, compound that with PPCs slower projectile speed at the time and suddenly had a weapon that was cool to fire but not very useful.

[senaiboy]

I did not say the hit detection for Gauss is any different, and I did not see Gauss being used exclusively as you mentioned. The only Gauss meta I saw was the Gausskitty, if it happened before that then I may have missed it. And the issue with Gausskitty was their relatively high alpha pinpoint damage and high DPS even at point blank range, which is more or less the same issue now with PPC (I even remember the threads calling for Gauss to have a minimum range ..)

Gauss has been made to explode now, so Gausskitties have mostly died out.

I don't recall that having anything to do with PPC though.

SRMs are differente because it comes in SRM2 to SRM6, and affects all mechs. PPCs are mainly used by Heavy/Assault mechs. I don't see why it should affect light mechs, in fact I don't see why it should even be feasible for a Spider of Jenner to use PPCs?

[CancR]

Making ppcs do more heat because you don't like ppc boats nerfs more then the boats, but every one who likes to use the ppc will be arbitrarily nerfed. This is a knee jerk reactionary response that affects mediums even more then it would assaults.

All this is is wanting PGi to hold your hand and make other players worse so you can be better and doesn't make the game any more skilled based like having a death on a 3rd overheat like there was in closed beta.

[CancR]

DemonRaziel, on 23 June 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

stupidity here

The lrm nerf was becase a single LRM was by it's self a broken weapon where through splash it was doing more damage then intended, it was phasing through cover and had an near instant time from being fired to hitting, even at max range.

A single ppc isn't a broken weapon. It can deal 10 damage but only at range and does less in the minimal range if the weapon even hits.

I know all you here today gone tomorrow CoD converts to mecwarrior don't fire on many synapses but consider the following:
If you want to punish boating ppcs so much, then how come the proposed method to do that will hurt mediums that take 1-2 ppcs more then it ever will assaults.?

[NinetyProof]

DemonRaziel, on 23 June 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Good scene, not very good movie. You are still wrong, if you think the PPC heat at its current level is sufficient and not does not strongly encourage the current meta.

As stated above by Braxton, the PPC has 1 more heat than the LL, while providing more damage, pinpoint damage and a faster recycle time (granted, this results in a higher HPS as well) and a even a lower heat than the LPL (which does have higher damage now, but loses a lot in the range department).

They are going to do an energy balance pass. That *is* the time to deal with all energy weapons ... not one at a time in piece meal fashion because of whiny bratz cry moar.

They could increase LL damage ... decrease PPC damage .. who knows ... who cares? ... Balance is good ... let the developers do their jobs ... you guys SUCK at developing games.

Edited by NinetyProof, 23 June 2013 - 08:03 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

It's all about relative heat. Balance the PPC compared to the LL and you'll come up with a good weapon. It should be more than 1 point hotter. 3 might be a good margin, but it'd be best to bump it up incrementally and let the player base test it in a live environment.

Better still would be to implement a slight heat bump at the same time as a comprehensive overhaul of heat penalties. Namely, PGI should introduce "soft" heat penalties (% reductions in max throttle, turn/twist rates, accuracy, etc.) when over 25% and "hard" heat penalties (internal damage to all locations with engine criticals assigned to them) when over 100% (being shut down prevents damage when under 125% and death outright occurs when over 150%).

[Metafox]

One thing that I've noticed about PPCs is that they have the same heat efficiency as medium lasers. Traditionally, a PPC's long range and high pinpoint damage is balanced by its low heat efficiency. If PPCs have the same heat efficiency as medium lasers, then they don't have any downsides to offset their advantages. I'm certainly in favor of increasing PPC heat.

[Jonny Taco]

There is nothing wrong with 1 or a 2 ppcs on a mech atm. Their heat/damage is reasonably well balanced with other energy weapons...

The problem is the ease in which a mechwarrior can fit 4 or more of them... The problem as I've been posting is the current fitting system. It allows for too much cheese/boating... Fix this problem and you fix your issue with ppcs and many other high alpha boat builds.

[CancR]

lartfor, on 23 June 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with 1 or a 2 ppcs on a mech atm. Their heat/damage is reasonably well balanced with other energy weapons...

The problem is the ease in which a mechwarrior can fit 4 or more of them... The problem as I've been posting is the current fitting system. It allows for too much cheese/boating... Fix this problem and you fix your issue with ppcs and many other high alpha boat builds.

Some one who gets it. Fix being able to abuse having tons of tons, don't **** lights even more with stupid arbitrary nerfs that hurt unintended classes more then the intended ones.

[Jonny Taco]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Some one who gets it. Fix being able to abuse having tons of tons, don't **** lights even more with stupid arbitrary nerfs that hurt unintended classes more then the intended ones.

The fact you said "Some one who gets it" tells me that my opinion is outside the norm?

What truly baffles me is how obvious the solution to this problem is and how so many players seem to just overlook it in favor of some bandaid fail heat pen sweeping "fix". It's things like this that make me beleive that this game is indeed a sinking ship sabotaged by it's own crew.

[Inkarnus]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

They do run hot, and they dont need o be changed. What needs to come back is death from overheats x3

they run far too cool like largepulselasers did before changes every build is better of with 2 ppcs without overheating saw even a quickdraw with ******* 3 erppcs dishing out 700 DMG this is ridicules
ppcs are atm the perfect weapon for every sitiation mostly i would be more happy
if they would just used as a heatdump and are not the perfect weapon like medlasers were for bt tt

Edited by Inkarnus, 23 June 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[Lord de Seis]

I haven't played the game in over a month because I was sick of PPC Alpha Boats and Poptarts. I decided to try it out tonight to see how things were.

Both games were river city, first game was cap and in that game there was a 4xERPPC Stalker & a 3xERPPC/Gauss Highlander. They of course finished the game with high damage and everyone else was about 400 points of damage behind them. We won because the Stalker got swarmed and was overheating.

Second game was assault, we started on the docks and the other team in the spaceport. They proceeded to camp in the base with 4 mechs two of which were surprise surprise a 4xPPC Catapult K2 & a 3xERPPC/Gauss Highlander. I rushed the K2 and did a lot of damage in close but once it was down the highlander had a easy time with me.

I would have thought that it would be blatantly obvious the Piranha Games that PPC's have clearly been overpowered in the game for quite some time now but it appears to still elude them. Not sure when I will try the game again, maybe again this week with some people in a group to see how things are but it is unfortunate to see the game still stuck in this form.

I don't see how anyone can find it enjoyable.

[senaiboy]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Some one who gets it. Fix being able to abuse having tons of tons, don't **** lights even more with stupid arbitrary nerfs that hurt unintended classes more then the intended ones.

Boating is a separate issue. PPC is not a balanced weapon in itself, that is why you see PPCs everywhere. For example if you could fit a PPC why would you use a Large Laser? The range and instant damage itself compared to LL is enough of a reason.

Light mechs should not be able to use PPCs that efficiently (by that I mean fire more than 1 or 2 shot continuously), I'm not even aware of any canon IS mech with PPC.

Edited by senaiboy, 23 June 2013 - 11:07 PM.

[Inkarnus]

in TT Awesome cuz its Awesome and has freaking 28 single Heatsinks
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Awesome
actually we have more Awesome mechs in game
that dont use the Awesome chassi
wich is sad
hope they make the Awesome mech the only
one who can fire 3 ppcs in the future without heatpenalty
to rightfully claim back his place

Edited by Inkarnus, 23 June 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[Nimura Nekogami]

IS-ppc canon Light-Mech: Panther (35 tonns and one ppc)

In my opinion it would work if you increase the heat for both ppc variants by 1.
(it would be a harsch nerf but it will add a price if you try to shot offten with it.....and....im shure more than 1 point could be to much)

(hope my english isnt that bad that you guys get my piont (greetings from germany ^^ ))

[Jonny Taco]

senaiboy, on 23 June 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

Boating is a separate issue. PPC is not a balanced weapon in itself, that is why you see PPCs everywhere. For example if you could fit a PPC why would you use a Large Laser? The range and instant damage itself compared to LL is enough of a reason.

What you are saying about PPCs is really only true in larger numbers... The bursty nature of the way the damage is applied is extremely effective when packaged with other ppcs. This scaling nature is not as significant in weapons that do not apply their damage instantly.

Field a single PPC in comparison to a single Large and it's not nearly as obvious as you make it seem. Oh yeah... Large laser is 2 tons less and 1 crit slot less, so taking a large laser vs a ppc is already an overly simplified bad example.

[Ralgas]

I'd like to see a slight heat increase (reverse the last drop) and projectile speed down to 800 or so (a little slower than ac/20)