79 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Making ppcs do more heat because you don't like ppc boats nerfs more then the boats, but every one who likes to use the ppc will be arbitrarily nerfed. This is a knee jerk reactionary response that affects mediums even more then it would assaults.

All this is is wanting PGi to hold your hand and make other players worse so you can be better and doesn't make the game any more skilled based like having a death on a 3rd overheat like there was in closed beta.

I would actually think it's the opposite because let's be totaly honest here and drop the pretence that someone who alphas six PPCs is somehow better,more skilled or a mech god.Anyone can put the little curser over the little robot and place a pinpoint massive alpha strike.I could probably train a parrot to do it.

A better player will always be a better player no matter what weapons they were using.The truth is the current super alpha strike meta is a crutch for poor players and easy mode for the good ones.

Back in closed beta we had to dance around a bit actually brawling and manuvering to nearly core out an Atlas it took effort.

Now we just point and click and presto nearly cored Atlas!

If you make one mistake you are pretty much out of the game make two mistakes and you are dead.

And who makes mistakes? New players.

New players get discouraged and leave the game.

And in my case a veteran player is getting really bored with massive alpha strike PPC boat Online and is contemplating dropping MWo .

I am a serious Battletech geek that has played at length every MW game,Table Top since the early 90s and currently win 2/3rds of my games with 3:0 KDR with this game.I am not discouraged by constant loses I am discouraged by being pigeon holed into a narrow meta that essentially boils down to pack on as many PPCs and Gauss rifles on the assault chassis as humanly possible.

This is getting so predictable and repetative I am wondering why I'm not doing something else.

Something needs to be done and exploring what can be done is a good course of action because the game is not doing well right now.

[Kmieciu]

PPCs should be less heat effective than medium lasers. If someone does not understand why, I won't bother talking to him.

[627]

In MW3 you couldn't fire 3 PPCs at once, you exploded instantly even with lots of heatsinks. You had to chainfire them.

I think a little more heat would be good. Nobody wants to put PPCs back in the bay to collect dust, but it's getting out of hand.

I saw a BJ with 3 PPCs... i mean, c'mon its a 45 ton mech?

If you add a bit of heat to PPCs, small mechs with only one of them (or maybe two) wouldn't be affected that much. They have a heavy sniper weapon for long range for a hit and run playstyle. but a 4PPC mech would have a much bigger problem to fire thos 4 PPCs twice or more.

[DemonRaziel]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

stupidity here

Being arrogant and insulting those who disagree with you does not help you prove your point. It tends to suggest you don't have valid arguments are are trying too hard to discredit him.

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

The lrm nerf was becase a single LRM was by it's self a broken weapon where through splash it was doing more damage then intended, it was phasing through cover and had an near instant time from being fired to hitting, even at max range.

So you can provide arguments to back your point. Briliant, please keep this up more w/out the arrogant responses. I agree with you on this one

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

A single ppc isn't a broken weapon. It can deal 10 damage but only at range and does less in the minimal range if the weapon even hits.

I know all you here today gone tomorrow CoD converts to mecwarrior don't fire on many synapses but consider the following:
If you want to punish boating ppcs so much, then how come the proposed method to do that will hurt mediums that take 1-2 ppcs more then it ever will assaults.?

The amount of logical fallacies you commit in this thread alone is astounding. Assuming much? I have not played any CoD MP since CoD 2, I have, however played Mechwarrior 3 quite a lot and a bit of MW4.

It's becoming clear that arguing with you is an exercise in futility, since you will simple resort to more insults, but I will nontheless respond, if only for the other readers.

Let's take a look at a ER PPC Spider first. Heat threshold of 50, single ER PPC does 11 heat. You can fire it off 5 times in quick successions w/out any fear of overheating. Raising the heat will force said Spider to fire less often and be more conservative with his shots. This will make his weapon less suitable for brawling, while keeping it viable as a long range sniping weapon (if the Spider decides to use it as such and takes more time to cool off between shots).

Now let's move to dual PPC Jenner. This one is a lot trickier to manage the heat, as the heat generation has been doubled (in case of 2x ER PPCs), or raised 1.5x (in case of 2x PPCs) w/out significant increase in heat threshold or heat dissipation compared to aforementioned Spider. But since he opted to go with a pair of PPCs instead of, say 4x MLs that offer the same DPS, he's probably not a brawler build in the first place. For sniping purposes, he'd just need to take his shots with a slightly higher delays in case the heat is raised.

As for the 1-2 PPC mediums, you mentioned. Are they packing some other weaponry as well? If so, let them use their PPC(s) at long range to soften up their enemy while they close the distance towards it (or while it closes the distance towards them) and then utilize their other weaponry at short range. If they find themselves in a tight spot that requires them to take the risky alpha to save themselves, they should by all means go for it. They might overheat though, so this should only be used as a last resort action if you are in a brawl.

And to sum it up, why do you think these 'Mechs like (as you put it in some previous post) to use their PPCs? I doubt it's because they have a PPC-fetish and seeing a blue blob gets them off. It's probably because these PPCs provide them advantages they want to capitalize on. And this advantages are high enough to make it worthwhile to them to pack as many as they can (be it just 1 or 2 in some case) at the cost of any, or at least most, other weapons.

As far as the heaviest 'Mechs and the main culprits in the PPC boating case are concerned, the heat bump will indeed not affect them as much, as they are mainly focused on the sniping action, as opposed to brawling, in the first place. It will however allow them to fire off less alphas and will make them significantly less dangerous and effective in close range combat (brawls) if their opponents manage to close the distance.

Raising the heat of PPCs and ER PPCs is not the be all end all solution to current high alpha meta and I have stated this fact before (in another thread dealing with a similar topic). It's just a step towards balancing the PPCs with other weapons to make it a very viable long range weapon with limited brawling capabilities as opposed to the best long range weapon and a decent to highly above average brawling weapon. If no disadvantages are present on a weapon, or are so minor that they are vastly inferior to their advantages, you have an imbalanced weapon. Especially since these qualities are not shared among most other weapons in game.

[VagGR]

putting the PPC heat back to 10 is the best way to go..it will immidiately solve a lot of problems and i just cant understand why PGI is so stubborn on this matter...they are trying to come up with weird formulas of heat penalties instead of doing one simple change that would make everybody happy...i guess PPCs are working "as intrended" but LPLs needed "normilization"....

[Syllogy]

LordBraxton, on 23 June 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

by hotfix

I mean make them run hot

like they used to

People complained PPCs were underpowered

in reality, they just had terribad hit detection

so they gained, 2000mps speed, EMP, and got lowered to 8 heat, all at once

then HSR fixed hit detection

so...

can we just....

have 10 heat PPCs back already? (15 heat ERs)

really this is taking far too long

Hotfixes are reserved for things that are broken. (LRMs, Ping, HUD, etc.) not for balancing weapons that need a light touch and some deep thought. (PPCs)

[Lightfoot]

That would be too hot because of DHS 1.4. Let me explain.

3xERPPC with DHS is a stock config in MechWarrior. Even with the lowered heat setting they still overheat too quickly.

Here is a scenario I tested a few days ago just because players who don't use ERPPC's seemed to doubt it.

With 21 DHS 1.4 and 3xERPPCs on River City. Firing 3 times on weapon recharge like you would in combat causes the mech to shutdown. If you fire again on restart it shuts the mech down for about 8-10 seconds. Not only that, but if you were on Tourmaline or Caustic , firing on mech restart puts you at or over the 150% heat threshold. This is actually a stock mech in MWO, the AWS-9M. To actually operate 3xERPPCs without shutting down requires you to wait 10 seconds between firings, so the third ERPPC is not being used.

Now I could accept if the AWS-9M stock overheated after 5 firings and then you waited 7-10 seconds, but in Battletech it's 9 salvos of 3xERPPCs to overheat the mech.

What I see mostly in MWO right now is AC's and Gauss unless the mech has no Ballistic hardpoint and so many mechs are not Ballistic enabled. If the PPC was so great you would see all the Jagermechs carrying 4 of them, but they all have boated AC2's, UAC5's, or 2xAC20.

Some newbie players always try to boat energy weapons, skilled players don't because they know they will get an Alpha-Strike through the cockpit if their mech shutsdown for 5 seconds.

MWO is GunWarrior right now. Ballistics are exempt from overheat pretty much and have their firing rates doubled. If you really want to continue with DHS 1.4 and increase the heat of large energy weapons you need to include; Add Ballistic hardpoints to all the mech chassis with your fix.

[Livewyr]

Syllogy, on 24 June 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Hotfixes are reserved for things that are broken. (LRMs, Ping, HUD, etc.) not for balancing weapons that need a light touch and some deep thought. (PPCs)

While PPCs are "working as intended" (as far as we know) I think at this point I would call them "broken."
It's an AC10- that weighs half as much, is half the size, longer range, faster "bullet," and doesn't need explosive ammo. It has roughly twice the heat.. which means little with DHS and Coolshot.


4PPC/Gauss Atlas RS should melt on alpha strike, or damn near. (If I end up on the leader board of this last weekend challenge, though I don't know if I played enough games, it will be because of that easy mode 55 pinpoint alpha, Seismic and coolshots 6 and 9by9)

EDIT: Nevermind, won't be on leaderboard even if I did 10,000 dmg per match... didn't Opt in.
Ah well.. probably only played 8-9 matches anyways...

Edited by Livewyr, 24 June 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

Lightfoot, on 24 June 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Now I could accept if the AWS-9M stock overheated after 5 firings and then you waited 7-10 seconds, but in Battletech it's 9 salvos of 3xERPPCs to overheat the mech.

Just in, Battletech TT rules don't work in an MMOFPS. A 3x erppc mech firing 9 shots back to back w/o shutdown is exceedingly OP...

[Yanlowen Cage]

PGI has thrown the book away as far as TT goes. Just saying. They are picking and choosing which LVL 3 rules they want to and tossing the ones they don't. And I personally (only my opinion) think they have made some bad decisions. For example, Level 3 rule about beyond max range distances for energy and ballistic weapons. Needed in game? Up to you the reader, me personally it has broken the point of LRMs. In TT few weapons (pre clan) had ranges that exceeded LRMs. now a lot do. They kept this lvl 3 rules. Hot loading lrms, nope they didn't want that lvl 3 rule. PPC Heat capacitor, nope didn't like that one either. Lvl 3 rule. On top of that they have bent the lvl 1 rules so far you could almost say they are broken. For all you battletech geeks out there (like me) pull out your to hit sheets and damage charts. If you fire lrms under 180 meters do you do no damage or is it just harder to hit with them? Also check ppcs and er ppcs do they do less damage the closer they are or they just harder to hit with? Heat scale? Gosh no. or more so only a rudimentary form of it. Mechs with specific roles? Nope they would rather make every mech an onmi only better. So my point is "if you want a battletech like game. Not happening" if you want a giant stompy robot game, they are doing pretty good. yes, weapons could use buffs/nerfs but until they fix the mechanics of the game it will be the next big thing that can be boated.

[Jonny Taco]

Yanlowen Cage, on 24 June 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

PGI has thrown the book away as far as TT goes. Just saying.

This is something I'm generally very happy with... The early closed beta to founders period was essentially held hostage by TT fanbois. I'm convinced that the adherence to TT rules in the early builds easily set this game back 6+ months.

As for your point about long range weapons hitting beyond LRM range... In theory, I don't really see an issue with this however the Ballistic Trajectories in this game make it FAR too easy to hit at extended ranges... Projectile Weapons need a bit more bullet drops and imo the PPC needs to have it's velocity very modestly nerfed.

[Syllogy]

lartfor, on 24 June 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Just in, Battletech TT rules don't work in an MMOFPS. A 3x erppc mech firing 9 shots back to back w/o shutdown is exceedingly OP...

30 damage every 4 seconds is OP?

That would include Dual Gauss builds, right?

What about Dual AC20 builds that do 40 damage every 4 seconds?

[General Taskeen]

Why didn't they just make PPC fizzle the hud and distort everything if you're hit by it. Would have been much better (with a higher heat/slightly lower projectile speed). Either that or make it into a Piccolo Special Beam Cannon.

[Galen Crayn]

I think the biggest problem is that this game based on Battletech Tabletop. In the TT everything was fine, but you cannot adopt some things and ignore others because then the whole system breaks (PPC are fine if they would be not making pinpoint damage for example... And the heat penalties in TT were cruel but necessary and good). If PGI dont want to adopt ALL BT mechanics they should do everything!!!! different. You can fire a PPC while walking 86kph exactly in the CT? Than make heat penalties, dont let them make damage under 300m or whatever... Or change the mech slot system - no more energy slots only specialized high, medium or small energy weapon slots. MWO ist not canon, so they can do what they want. So please PGI make your own ballanced system.

I played the PPC+Gauss thing myself but i stoped it because its soooo lame! Now i use only builds that maybe suck in compare to ppc boats but they make fun! And fun its the reason i play this game...

Edited by Galen Crayn, 24 June 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

Syllogy, on 24 June 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

What about Dual AC20 builds that do 40 damage every 4 seconds?

In an attempt to not embarass you I'd like to point out that AC20s weigh much more, consume ammo, produce high levels of heat as well, and take up FAR FAR more crit slot space. Oh yeah, AC20s also have much shorter range....

I'm honestly confused about the fact that you even managed to finish your post w/o realizing that it makes no sense. Some people....

Edited by lartfor, 24 June 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[Yanlowen Cage]

lartfor, on 24 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

This is something I'm generally very happy with... The early closed beta to founders period was essentially held hostage by TT fanbois. I'm convinced that the adherence to TT rules in the early builds easily set this game back 6+ months.

As for your point about long range weapons hitting beyond LRM range... In theory, I don't really see an issue with this however the Ballistic Trajectories in this game make it FAR too easy to hit at extended ranges... Projectile Weapons need a bit more bullet drops and imo the PPC needs to have it's velocity very modestly nerfed.

Would you be okay with LRMS being dumb fired at high angles over obstacles with range and spread determined by arc angle? For those of you that are not familiar with the idea. I am referring to rocket arty. Highest speed achieved + Angle - weight of missile = range of dumb fired missiles. Distances after launch determine spread. I see absolutely no reason that missiles should just "explode" at 1000 meters. Other then just because. Another thought. If I am at a higher elevation shouldn't my ballistics and missiles travel further? Not trying to start a gripe war, but if you are going to add all kinds of cool buffs to one weapon system shouldn't the love be spread across all them?

[FrDrake]

Won't lie, didn't read but like 4 posts of this entire thread.

Totally agree with OP, make the heat higher to give LL it's place back, put the PPC back to 10, put the ERPPC higher (I'd start with 14 though not 15).

Anyone defending current PPC heat generation just hates to have a balanced game, PPC is too good right now compared to everything else, make PPC a choice, not a requirement.

I saw someone comparing PPC to Gauss earlier in thread, Gauss have 3 HP now and deal dmg to mech, you can only boat max of 2, they are stupidly heavy, they are balanced already.

[Jonny Taco]

Yanlowen Cage, on 24 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Would you be okay with LRMS being dumb fired at high angles over obstacles with range and spread determined by arc angle? For those of you that are not familiar with the idea. I am referring to rocket arty. Highest speed achieved + Angle - weight of missile = range of dumb fired missiles. Distances after launch determine spread. I see absolutely no reason that missiles should just "explode" at 1000 meters. Other then just because. Another thought. If I am at a higher elevation shouldn't my ballistics and missiles travel further? Not trying to start a gripe war, but if you are going to add all kinds of cool buffs to one weapon system shouldn't the love be spread across all them?

Dude, that's a pretty novel suggestion and I do agree wholeheartedly that missiles self destructing at 1000m is beyond foolish. What would be cool is if the max "guided" range was 1000m. After 1000m they would shut off the rocket engine and just glide to where the target originally was maxing at maybe 1500m. I doubt this would really have any significant impact on gameplay however the lack of a foolish "self destruct" would be immensely more immersive.

[Corvus Antaka]

id like to see a cut to 1600m/s and a return to 15 heat for erppc and 11 heat for the ppc.

[Jonny Taco]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 24 June 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

id like to see a cut to 1600m/s and a return to 15 heat for erppc and 11 heat for the ppc.

You've managed to miss the actual ruit cause of the problem...

The problem is not PPCs individual stats, it's the fact that mechs are fitting 4-5 of them that should be fitting 2 max. The extremely fail "heat pen" solution proposed will do nothing but make it slightly more difficult to pull off these fits while also nerfing PPC setups that are not "boating" are are most certainly not "over powered".