471 replies to this topic

[Arkatrex]

TOGSolid, on 24 June 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

What does this "progress" have to do with the ****** state the game is currently in? Broken HSR, imbalanced as **** combat, and a complete lack of communication that has become downright insulting aren't exactly positive steps.

That's an easy answer for everyone who has programmed one or two little program codes.
You put in a new feature which depends on other functions.

In the test environment (20-40 persons) it may happens that the bug is not so obviously. If the patch is going live (many thousands of players), the chance to reveal a bug is much bigger.

So the dev's have the problem that they have to react on this bug.
For sure...they could shutdown the servers, plugin the bugfix and start the servers again. And this many many times per day.

But that would enrage the whole players again.
It's not easy to please everybody, especially in the gaming scene.

Edit:
Try to slip into PGI's shoes. What would you do or think if you would read these cruel and bitchy posts from the community? Would you want that anyone say that to you?

That's a very big motivation..really (sarcasm).

Edited by Arkatrex, 24 June 2013 - 11:53 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

That's an easy answer for everyone who has programmed one or two little program codes.
You put in a new feature which depends on other functions.

In the test environment (20-40 persons) it may happens that the bug is not so obviously. If the patch is going live (many thousands of players), the chance to reveal a bug is much bigger.

So the dev's have the problem that they have to react on this bug.
For sure...they could shutdown the servers, plugin the bugfix and start the servers again. And this many many times per day.

But that would enrage the whole players again.

It's not easy to please everybody, especially in the gaming scene.

Your "answer" didn't actually address anything I said and is just more misdirection from the original posts.

PGI's development and balancing cycles have proven to be incredibly backwards. They do inane things like nerf the **** out of Large Pulse Lasers and don't bother telling us what their future plans are that would justify what they're up to. Any response we get is usually just "we'll look at it when it's that weapons turn in the balance cycle." I've never heard of any other company doing game balance like that because it results in issues being addressed in a bubble which is just incompetent. Even then, they ignore anything we're saying about the problem and then apply a jacked up band-aid that just makes other things break.

As far as bugs go, they let issues fester and then don't even bother to tell us what's going on. The community would be a LOT happier if PGI would just step up and tell us what the hell is going on but they can't even be bothered to do that. The few time they have, we've been overjoyed and very understanding but those instances have been very rare.

Communication is easily PGI's weakest area and would solve a lot of problems because we'd feel more confident in them, and they'd be getting actual feedback that matters instead of just their current "throw darts at a board" method of doing things. They post patch notes with disturbingly little detail as to what they're doing in that patch. They don't bother to just have their overpaid "community manager" put out a quick "hey, we're working on this issue" response to anything. They have completely clammed up and stopped talking to the community. I have a MWO list with all of the relevant Twitter accounts and it's been almost totally dead save for an NGNG stream announcement and the tourney winners announcement.

Please though, do continue on about how this sort of behavior is just part of normal game development.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 June 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Edit:
Try to slip into PGI's shoes. What would you do or think if you would read these cruel and bitchy posts from the community? Would you want that anyone say that to you?

That's a very big motivation..really (sarcasm).

If I saw so many people unified on certain points in a negative fashion I'd realize the people that take serious criticism and spin it into anger would be understandable.

I'm not angry with PGI, I'm just frustrated because they've got something so good here, and in an attempt to try to please the masses they are throwing it all away and ultimately pleasing no one. The 3rd person view is one of those big things, because I don't know how PGI can think this is a good idea to make money when everyone is against it.

... I also will not let the fact Hawken, a far more arcadey 'mech game, is refusing to add 3rd person and is doing well in the same markets that MW:O thinks they need to add it for.

I think UI2.0 is very, very important and I'm glad they're working on that, but they do still have people doing other things and it seems like they are all the wrong things.

EDIT: Also they can hotfix small things without shutting down the servers for more than a minute. They've done on the fly hot fixes before and I think a 1 minute service interruption at 3AM is acceptable to push updates.

Edited by Victor Morson, 24 June 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[ObsidianSpectre]

Anyone else here play Path of Exile?

I bring it up because the developers once said (paraphrasing) "Sorry guys, we haven't been talking to you guys enough. We're going to get better at that!" See, they'd only been making posts about the game and their plans, and what's going on in development about 3 times a week. They thought that was too little, and they've committed to doing it daily instead.

This is in addition to their normal policy of talking to the players directly in threads, and they regularly pop in and answer questions about mechanics and what they're up to. If there's a hot topic issue about the game that comes up, you can be certain that they're going to engage the players in a dialog pretty quickly.

The amount of communication from their small dev team stands in stark contrast to PGI. It's obvious that they listen to the players, and the community and I think the game is much better because of it. There's still complaints and whining from the player base - it is the internet, after all - but on average the community is much more restrained and friendly with the developers. The community doesn't have the air of malaise hanging over it that this one does, the pessimism about the game and it's future that MWO has.

PGI really should steal from their notebook. Talking to the community, and actually listening and not just brushing them off would help a lot. We're still here, and posting on their forum, so we all still care about the game to some degree. While not everything posted has merit, there's a good bit that does, and the game would be much better off with better community involvement from PGI.

Anyways, I just picked out one part of the OP's post to comment on, but I agree with pretty much everything he's said, and have said the same or similar in the past.

[HRR Mary]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Yes..this is ********.
Any player who started and the beta knows that the progress is very big between closed beta and now. Sorry for that..but that's really ********.

May I point out this thread started by a member of my unit : http://mwomercs.com/...om-closed-beta/

More specifically the first lines :

Quote

On June 17, 2012, I posted a thread (http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1) stating that the Developer’s on-going attempts to balance weapons without some mechanism of weapon spread (cone of fire, convergence, etc) were doomed. And by extension, the game itself was likely doomed to suffer terrible weapon/armor balance.

During this thread the Devs indicated that a solution (weapon convergence, even if this is a non-optimal solution) would be implemented that would address this issue. They asked me to wait.

I promised I would wait.

I have waited more than six months.
(snip.... )

The only major changes from closed beta is the number of mechs, maps and "content". The basics of the game are as broken as they were in the CB.
PGI has been warned by the players (read full post), they have looked elsewhere.

People now start getting crazy about convergence issues, the "High damamge pinpoint Alpha" is the great terror, because with HSR anyone with whatever ping they have can actually put that damage in a single panel. BUT this was already a major problem in game at Closed BETA.

A shame really that we can't access back to those posts from closed beta, so people realize that PGI only created new content (which is nice, mind you) over an already borked core.

[xengk]

Asmudius Heng, on 24 June 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Perhaps you didnt understand the point. If you balance for the top teirs that means in the top tiers there is no FOTM build because the game is balanced so the highly competitive players cannot min-max because of the balancing done for their sphere of play.

This balance then trickles down to the rest of us because it cannot be broken easily. Though there may be certian builds and combos are certain skill levels that take precedence due to skill/teamwork. However because it was balanced for high end play there will be counters easily available if you look into it further.

When you simplify things and balance to the lowest common denominator you leave huge balance gaps a mile long that high level players will exploit.

Balancing for high level play means balancing to minimize exploits - high level play form other games is often bugged by min maxing not because it was high level play, but because the game was not balanced around that and those players found the edge to compete.

Chicken and egg discussion.

Top tier will always min/max for sole reason of milking out as much advantage possible. Even in Diablo 2, top tier PVPer calculate attacks down to frame per attack to maximize their builds. Which caused blizzard to nerf them and make other build viable.
The best way to have several counter available to FOTM.

Yes chicken and egg.
Top-Down design and Bottom-Up design can never agree with each other.

Quote

You do realize that there are a lot of card bannings/restrictions in MTG so that the game is balanced for the top tier players right? Don't try to use something for an example when you clearly have no idea how it works.

I am familiar with MtG, and used to be a DCI tournament player.
Errata and ban list often pop up when the top tier found a way to abuse a card or combo, which no amount of inhouse play testing can catch. That is why online game have an Open Beta phase, to test the game in Wild environment and patch it before Official Release.
MtG doesn't have that luxury and have to slap on card bans as post-fix for tournaments.
After the card has been played and found to be balance, it often get release again as basic set or new iteration in new blocks.

Quote

Do you know how many great competitive games are built based on competitive community input right now? Almost all of them. And you quote a card game? A CARD GAME. The best analogy you can find for competitive pvp video gaming is a literal, undisputably pay-to-win CARD GAME.

Of course competitive game listen to competitive community, because it is a COMPETITIVE game. Unless PGI is aiming to push MWO into WCG, there is no point to weight input from one segment of the community over the other. But work to please as large portion of the player base as possible.
It doesn't matter it is a card game, boardgame or video game. The objective is still the same, make it enjoyable for everyone and still turn a profit.

[MustrumRidcully]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 24 June 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

I wish that mektek was still working on MW:4 and that MW:LL was still being updated because those games were honestly more balanced than MW:O. PPCs, ECM, TAG, BAP, and Boating should all be totally revamped. They thought the idea of HARD-counters was good. This is not the case. SOFT-counters are far superior. This is because an lrm boat with ecm and tag in current game is unbeatable. You cant stop his lock on and he can stop yours. But if he had ecm and tag with SOFT-counters he would be a regular guy. He can still get hit by lrms, he can still fire lrms. His lock will be accelerated because of tag but if someone has ecm his lock wont be totally stopped if he didn't have room for tag.

You need to use more paragraphs, because this part is definitely worth reading since I completely agree with it. Soft Counters would have been a much nicher solution.

[HRR Mary]

EDIT : Sorry about the double posting, the mwo site seems to have hiccuped

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Yes..this is ********.
Any player who started and the beta knows that the progress is very big between closed beta and now. Sorry for that..but that's really ********.

May I point out this thread started by a member of my unit : http://mwomercs.com/...om-closed-beta/

More specifically the first lines :

Quote

On June 17, 2012, I posted a thread (http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1) stating that the Developer’s on-going attempts to balance weapons without some mechanism of weapon spread (cone of fire, convergence, etc) were doomed. And by extension, the game itself was likely doomed to suffer terrible weapon/armor balance.

During this thread the Devs indicated that a solution (weapon convergence, even if this is a non-optimal solution) would be implemented that would address this issue. They asked me to wait.

I promised I would wait.

I have waited more than six months.
(snip.... )

The only major changes from closed beta is the number of mechs, maps and "content". The basics of the game are as broken as they were in the CB.
PGI has been warned by the players (read full post), they have looked elsewhere.

People now start getting crazy about convergence issues, the "High damamge pinpoint Alpha" is the great terror, because with HSR anyone with whatever ping they have can actually put that damage in a single panel. BUT this was already a major problem in game at Closed BETA.

A shame really that we can't access back to those posts from closed beta, so people realize that PGI only created new content (which is nice, mind you) over an already borked core.

Edited by HRR Mary, 25 June 2013 - 12:20 AM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

People now start getting crazy about convergence issues, the "High damamge pinpoint Alpha" is the great terror, because with HSR anyone with whatever ping they have can actually put that damage in a single panel. BUT this was already a major problem in game at Closed BETA.

Yup. People treat the current meta as some new great *****, but this is something that the good players players have been worrying about for a long time, been dealing with in 8 mans for almost equally long, and are now having to argue with people who don't know **** about. I remember a while back I made a thread all about introducing some sort of skill by putting in some sort of accuracy degredation system ala Counterstrike in order to fix this now rampant problem.

EDIT: And here's the thread! It's kinda cute to look back on me calling this a "growing problem."
http://mwomercs.com/...74#entry2229274

Quote

Anyone else here play Path of Exile?

Nope, but I do play Warframe. The devs from that game will actively hang out in both the founder's in-game chat channel and the one for regular players and field questions, ideas, and generally shoot the **** with us on a regular basis. On patch days you can see them interacting with everyone and hotfixing any issues that crop up as fast as possible. There are a lot of little touches that have gone into that game that are the result of the direct input of the players. For instance, if you like that "sort by type" option for Mods, that was me who suggested it. DE_Steve rolled it into a hotfix about half an hour later.

Quote

Talking to the community, and actually listening and not just brushing them off would help a lot.

Yup. It's not like they need to hang out with us all day long. A few posts every now and then letting us know where they're at, what's going on, and what they think of the game's issues would do wonders for the morale around here. Hell, the fact that I haven't even seen a tweet from Bryan Ekman about anything for two weeks is kinda worrying.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 June 2013 - 12:34 AM.

[Theodor Kling]

The lack of communications is realy bad And if there is some, it is scattered all over the internet. And then there is "ask the devs" where half the answers are nice ways of saying: next question please.

Balance is off, BUT I think theyare finally going into the right direction with that. Not underlying issues like pinpoint accuracy,but the numbers. Of course those numbers are meaningless if they ever change the core stuff.

Is thegame headed into the right direction? Very subjective.. but for me the answer is a clear : NOT AT ALL!
This was suppesd to be a BT game. It is adverteised as a thinking mans shooter. Aside from the problem of "shooter" where I would prefer simulator, it isn´t even that. Without a decent way for ingame comunication for PUGs it´s not even realy a tea based game ( with exeption once in a while).
It just feels more a nd more arcade to me, which I find sad. And 3rd person view is not gonna help in that respect.

But nevertheles I still got high hopes for UI2.0 and their supposed to come ingame comunication sollution ( whatever it might be.. the dev answers are always so vague). Although both should have been in before even going open beta. Heck a team based game forcing external com software on the players ( making pugging a pain) and lacking a lobby or private matches should not have gone to beta at all. A pure multiplayer game lacking basic multiplayer standarts after nearly a year of open beta... yeah.
What I don´t hope for is the Clans Without the gae with current IS equipment fully working and balanced, Clans would steamroll everything even more then they are supposed to. On the other hadn it might be fun when dual LRM20 lights swarm the maps, and triple gauss assaults mix it up.

Dornhal, on 23 June 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

You have very long winded opinions. Most of us think the game is fine.

Do we? I certainly don´t.

Tekadept, on 23 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I agree with everything said here, the lack of communication is appalling, it is almost a throw back to the early days of the internet when game developers were just learning that they had to start communicating with people on a whole new medium vs the traditional magazine articles.

As far as game balance? the biggest issue here is that this is being treated like a released game, any balance changes that happen are very minor and insignificant as they are too wary to upset their paying player base. patches should be far more daring to help balance things out because hey its beta right?, The only reason to balance they way they are in minute amounts is because they think things are perfectly balanced, that makes things even more scary.

True about comunicatiosn, but inor and insignificant changes?! Most of their weapon balancing till May was about as subtle as a swing with Mjölnir ( or any other mytholigical, powerfull blunt instrument). It took them nearly a year to get LRMs to their "nearly there" state they are in now, alternating them bwetween insanely OP and completely useless before. I actually apreciate that they started to make the new changes smaller. Now they just need to do so more oftne.

[Valore]

Ermegerd convergence. I agree with whatever Roland said.

Quote

Just look at the difference between an AC/20 and a medium laser: 4 times the damage for 14 times the weight and 10 times the size. That's how useful extra damage to a single location is [in TT].

In TT, you paid to have that pinpoint damage with weight/slots/heat.

In MW, you're basically getting pinpoint for free so all other things equal, you'd never bother taking one big gun when you could take several smaller ones.

PGI fixed boating lasers for pointpoint cheap damage by giving then hitscan/Damage over Time.

But that leaves things that can't be fixed like that such as Gauss, PPCs and high calibre ACs. Low calibre ACs can't really be boated effectively, so they're ignored.

The K2 Gausscat caused tears in its time. Then came the PPC/Gauss Phract, causing more tears. Then the torrents were unleashed with the PPC Stalker and the PPG Highlander.

Wait till we get something that can mount 3 or more Gauss/ACs.

[The Cheese]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

words

I think you missed my point. It's perfectly reasonable for PGI to claim that it's still a work in progress. The point was that behind all the socially correct fluff that we all (well, most of us) pad out our posts with, we just want to play the game.

Edited by The Cheese, 25 June 2013 - 12:59 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Valore, on 25 June 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Wait till we get something that can mount 3 or more Gauss/ACs.

Lucky that Gauss are heavy restricted by there mass...however a premier example the ThunderHawk:3 Gauss and 4 MLAS
I'm sure the current meta - will change it into 2 Gauss and 3 PPCs or similar

[Theodor Kling]

Valore, on 25 June 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Wait till we get something that can mount 3 or more Gauss/ACs.

Like clan mechs? A 90ton clan omni with enough pod space can easily mount tirple gauss and 5-6 tons of ammo, with maxed armor, while still running at 65kph and maybe even get a LAMS, and 3 JJ.

[Arkatrex]

I have to ask: What is communication lack for you?

It might that we have different opinions about a communication lack.
There is the command chair, which contains many informations about existing problems, plans and announcements of features.

And don't forget the directors update every month.
I didn't see really a communication lack.

But that could be a result of "i don't want to know if a dev goes to the toilet...or is eating a hamburger".

What do you want to know every time, every hour and every minute from the devs?.
If i expect information from the dev's, so that should be informations like what is containing the next patch or something like that.

Isn't that enough? You know they will do something new...and fixing bugs. What do you want do know more ?

And they explained many times that there are different teams which put in new features and do bug fixing.

Why nobody is listening to them? that makes me sad.

Edited by Arkatrex, 25 June 2013 - 01:02 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Theodor Kling, on 25 June 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Like clan mechs? A 90ton clan omni with enough pod space can easily mount tirple gauss and 5-6 tons of ammo, with maxed armor, while still running at 65kph and maybe even get a LAMS, and 3 JJ.

Oh i have forgot the Clans....

just the premier example: the DireWolf Prime: 2 gauss and 4 ER-PPCs in the arms. (alpha of 90 - if they stay true to TT values - and i really hope that they are more clever)

Karl Streiger, on 25 June 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Isn't that enough? You know they will do something new...and fixing bugs. What do you want do know more ?

And they explained many times that there are different teams which put in new features and do bug fixing.

Why nobody is listening to them? that makes me sad.

Its never enough.
While it may be bold - but I really would like to know some more informations about some changes.

Good example Quickdraw for the Orion - because of Meta - wich data was consulted to make that choice,
The change of LRM or LPL damage - again - some more reasons but a simple sentence.
Why is PPC fine - maybe there are still 50% of MWO Players that are not able to hit a barn with PPC, so a nerf for this weapon will harm them.

They could really really reduce QQ if they tell more things.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 June 2013 - 01:06 AM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

The K2 Gausscat caused tears in its time. Then came the PPC/Gauss Phract, causing more tears. Then the torrents were unleashed with the PPC Stalker and the PPG Highlander.

I'm Henry the Highlander, Henry the Boating Highlander
I boat PPCs 'cause I'm a *****
They've been boated many times before
and eeeeeveryone was an Henry (HENRY!)
The PPCs just do not give a damn (NO DAMNS!)
I'm the latest in a long line of Henries
Henry the Highlander!

Second verse, same as the first!

Quote

I have to ask: What is communication lack for you?

It might that we have different opinions about a communication lack.
There is the command chair, which contains many informations about existing problems, plans and announcements of features.

And don't forget the directors update every month.
I didn't see really a communication lack.

But that could be a result of "i don't want to know if a dev goes to the toilet...or is eating a hamburger".

What do you want to know every time, every hour and every minute from the devs?.
If i expect information from the dev's, so that should be informations like what is containing the next patch or something like that.

Isn't that enough? You know they will do something new...and fixing bugs. What do you want do know more ?

And they explained many times that there are different teams which put in new features and do bug fixing.

Why nobody is listening to them? that makes me sad.

We have a community manager that never posts anything.

Ever.

Or even tweets anymore.

As I said earlier, even the guys who regularly communicated have STOPPED COMMUNICATING. They posted their "fixes" and asked for "feedback" and then never acknowledge any of it. Their patch notes have a frightening lack of information (this last set was particularly insulting). Their ATD responses have been getting shorter and shorter and have been amounting to "I dunno lol." What part of this are you not understanding? Is this an "english is not your primary language" problem? I have a German buddy who can translate if that's the issue here.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 June 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Brilig]

Annihilator C2 - Apparently based on the ANH-1G, this variant only uses Clan technology. The 'Mech's top speed was 32.4 km/h and the armor protection was reduced, but four Gauss Rifles backed up by an ER PPC in the center torso and a head mounted ER Small Laser provided withering firepower for defensive engagements. Ten tons of ammunition kept the Gauss Rifles fed through the longest engagements. To make room for all these weapons, the C2 used an Endo Steel internal structure. Integrated CASE protected the arms and torsos from Gauss Rifle explosions. BV (2.0) = 2,722[12]

[TOGSolid]

Brilig, on 25 June 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Annihilator C2 - Apparently based on the ANH-1G, this variant only uses Clan technology. The 'Mech's top speed was 32.4 km/h and the armor protection was reduced, but four Gauss Rifles backed up by an ER PPC in the center torso and a head mounted ER Small Laser provided withering firepower for defensive engagements. Ten tons of ammunition kept the Gauss Rifles fed through the longest engagements. To make room for all these weapons, the C2 used an Endo Steel internal structure. Integrated CASE protected the arms and torsos from Gauss Rifle explosions. BV (2.0) = 2,722[12]

I'll see your derp and raise you maximum derp!

The Gausszilla from Historical: Operation Klondike, on the other hand, is fully canonical; see Annihilator#Custom Variants.

Which leads to:

Annihilator Bryan "Gausszilla" - Apparently based on the Annihilator C2, this variant carried five Gauss Rifles. In addition to the standard Gauss Rifle layout, a fifth Gauss Rifle was fitted to the right torso. This variant only had eight tons of ammunition. BV (2.0) = 2, 455^[13] It is a nod to Bryan Nystul's (non-canonical) Gausszilla design.

[Arkatrex]

TOGSolid, on 25 June 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

I'm Henry the Highlander, Henry the Boating Highlander
I boat PPCs 'cause I'm a *****
They've been boated many times before
and eeeeeveryone was an Henry (HENRY!)
The PPCs just do not give a damn (NO DAMNS!)
I'm the latest in a long line of Henries
Henry the Highlander!

Second verse, same as the first!


We have a community manager that never posts anything.

Ever.

Or even tweets anymore.

As I said earlier, even the guys who regularly communicated have STOPPED COMMUNICATING. They posted their "fixes" and asked for "feedback" and then never acknowledge any of it. Their patch notes have a frightening lack of information (this last set was particularly insulting). Their ATD responses have been getting shorter and shorter and have been amounting to "I dunno lol." What part of this are you not understanding? Is this an "english is not your primary language" problem? I have a German buddy who can translate if that's the issue here.

What is your problem guy??
Can you not live without insulting me?

It doesn't matter what i try to explain. The only answers i'll got from you are insulations and being off topic most of the time.

I answered your questions and you tell me that it doesn't matter. I told you that it does matter and your answer is? You get it? Right? Yes..your answer is: Is this an "english is not your primary language" problem? I have a German buddy who can translate if that's the issue here."

It seems to me that you're a wannabe..not more or less. If you don't want to discuss any constructive and opinion depended topics...why you're here? Do you need so much to seek affirmation from the other guys?...

oh my god...that's the only one thing i have to say about that.

Edited by Arkatrex, 25 June 2013 - 01:40 AM.