471 replies to this topic

[Petroshka]

Lostdragon, on 24 June 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

All the GR weight means is that Victor would be one of the best mechs. It could field 2 GR and an ERPPC no problem and still have a 40 point alpha without heat issues. You could build a CTF with 2x GR and a PPC that would be perfectly viable to replace current PPC boats. It would have to have like a XL 250-260 engine but if it had the biggest Alpha that wouldn't matter because it would still kick butt.

As long as it is possible to put 40+ points of damage to a single location in one shot people will run builds designed to do that.

But consider this: The Gauss Rifle is prone to asplosion, the ammo is limited, and the gauss/ppc projectiles don't have the same lead on moving targets. This makes it a much much weaker platform than a comparable alpha with ppcs.

[Asmudius Heng]

Petroshka, on 25 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

But consider this: The Gauss Rifle is prone to asplosion, the ammo is limited, and the gauss/ppc projectiles don't have the same lead on moving targets. This makes it a much much weaker platform than a comparable alpha with ppcs.

While it is harder to boat gauss, the fact you do not overheat as well meas it is a great ranged and brawling weapon. It is less of an issue to PPCs for sure due to wonky heat mechanics but boating a great weapon is still optimal.

[Valore]

Asmudius Heng, on 25 June 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

While it is harder to boat gauss, the fact you do not overheat as well meas it is a great ranged and brawling weapon. It is less of an issue to PPCs for sure due to wonky heat mechanics but boating a great weapon is still optimal.

Exactly, and the current state means that Gauss out DPSs PPCs as well. Combined with no need for heat management, it definitely packs more upfront punch. Which also unfortunately happens to be exactly what you want to win.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

@ Victor Morson and Valore ... I'm not by any stretch saying that the game is balanced right now.

As a sniper, my skills are lacking ... against a poorly skilled sniper, my brawlers, fire support 'mechs, and scouts can be effective ... against a skilled sniper, unless I get very lucky, I die. Almost every time.

Because I have difficulty adapting to the current meta (every "L2P noob" or "L2meta" post makes me cringe), my stats have suffered, but I do have a good or great match often enough that I still keep coming back.

I was agreeing with Antarus, and adding more options ... defeating an adversary is best accomplished by either exploiting their weaknesses or neutralizing their strengths ... strength vs. strength (a war of attrition), while fun, is almost always a bad idea.

The balance problem with the current meta is a mix of several different things ... convergence of high-damage projectile alphas, small maps (where a couple of positions can snipe most of the map), maps suited almost exclusively to long range combat (alpine and tourmaline), balance tweaks that haven't been readjusted (PPC/ERPPC heat and projectile speed), game play experience improvements (ballistics hit state rewind), etc. ... I'm sure there are more, but these are the most apparent.

The meta-game problem is that when all of those aspects are combined, the strengths far outweigh the weaknesses. If sniper builds were still inaccurate (fixed by HSR), risky (fixed by PPC heat penalties), glass cannons they were six months ago, we'd probably have something else to gripe about.

I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion, and I desperately hope PGI is listening, because I think we all enjoy the game and want it to be great n the long run.

@ PGI - please don't make me regret the $80 impulse purchase I just made on an Overlord package.

[Victor Morson]

Apparently, things are better than ever



Take a trip on down to K-Town if you're interested in more.
http://mwomercs.com/...b-on-an-island/

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 June 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Victor Morson, on 25 June 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Apparently, things are better than ever

In some ways, this is probably true ... the hopeful side of me wants to think he really meant "it's better than ever, sure we've got some things to work on, but those fixes are coming, and you're really going to love the next big thing" ... the cynic in me thinks that either his "good enough" meter needs recalibrating or he's just delusional.

[Fate 6]

It doesn't take actual video game skills to understand balance. I'm not at the highest tier (I blame my integrated graphics for that), but I can see what the imbalances are caused by (FupDup with the AMS callout, +1). I really hate that you're making the assumption of player skill here, when that doesn't need to be brought into this. PGI does balance like the kid, but it's not because of the data we give them. It's because they don't seem to take the gameplay seriously (they run around in suboptimal builds every time I see them, or they just walk around Tourmaline capping in a Highlander), and they don't take the time to analyze the problems.

I'm honestly very disappointed in the PGI balance team, because while there are some things that aren't obvious to balance (alpha striking, PPCs, etc), some things like SRMs (and ECM, damn it) are very simple. The player base has come up with more solutions to the issues than we can count. It seems like we get ignored, despite us trying to do their jobs for them and paying to do it too.

[Deathlike]

Fate 6, on 25 June 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

It doesn't take actual video game skills to understand balance. I'm not at the highest tier (I blame my integrated graphics for that), but I can see what the imbalances are caused by (FupDup with the AMS callout, +1). I really hate that you're making the assumption of player skill here, when that doesn't need to be brought into this. PGI does balance like the kid, but it's not because of the data we give them. It's because they don't seem to take the gameplay seriously (they run around in suboptimal builds every time I see them, or they just walk around Tourmaline capping in a Highlander), and they don't take the time to analyze the problems.

When I see an assault mech solo capping a base while the rest of the team is being torn asunder, I facepalm.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Fate 6, on 25 June 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

It doesn't take actual video game skills to understand balance. (snip for brevity)

I agree ... a player's opinion's validity should not be based on his skill. However, his perspective may be incomplete ... chances are, he doesn't have as deep of an understanding of the game's mechanics as those who have dedicated more hours to refining their skill and understanding the game.

Along the same lines, none of us knows exactly what PGI is working on and will be introducing to the game in the coming months ... if we had known Seismic was coming, would the QQing about ECM have been as loud?

Quote

I'm honestly very disappointed in the PGI balance team, because while there are some things that aren't obvious to balance (alpha striking, PPCs, etc), some things like SRMs (and ECM, damn it) are very simple. The player base has come up with more solutions to the issues than we can count. It seems like we get ignored, despite us trying to do their jobs for them and paying to do it too.

Just as the players are more creative about finding ways to exploit imbalances in the game, we will also have lots of good and valid ideas for fixing the game ... I think they are listening, but I'm just as frustrated as everyone that they're not talking to us, even if only to say "interesting idea, we're working on something a little different, though".

[Victor Morson]

Neverfar, on 26 June 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

What astounds me most about some of the most self-aggrandizing and pretentious posters on this forum is how deeply they believe Elo equals wisdom, and for that matter, equals "knows what's best for the game for everyone".

ELO doesn't mean much (mostly because good players have likely tanked theirs screwing around and even suiciding frequently to setup league matches) but there are definitely tiers of players. Most people who say "High ELO" are simply referring to upper-tier players.

In general people with the highest ELOs will be using the most powerful meta, so they are the ones to watch, as well.

Edited by Victor Morson, 26 June 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Neverfar, on 26 June 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

That is actually a fair assessment I find myself agreeing with.

Unfortunately, we got some Elo fanatics that want to use it as an abstract to measure worthiness on this forum and set up their little country club of elitist hostility like in MOBA-land forums. I don't need to name names; you probably know exactly who I'm talking about.

Their heart is the right place, even though the ELO thing gets thrown around (which is kind of pointless, since we cannot actually see our ELO). The reason it comes up so much is if it is working right, you will feel like you are doing fine, even if you are actually really bad because it's matching you with people of roughly even skill.

Thus we have a lot of people coming on here declaring that (good advice based on facts) isn't true, because the Dragon is awesome and an LRM/10 on the CT is totally a good idea, or other insane stuff of that ilk. They usually then proceed to post screenshots and smugly state it is proof, when in reality, they're a small fish in the kiddie pool, so to speak.

Still arguing about ELO is getting old because, again, until we can see it there is absolutely no way to back a thing we're saying. Plus I suspect mine is tanked from all my gimmick test builds, suicides (League/practice stuff), etc.

[Jestun]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 25 June 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

In some ways, this is probably true ... the hopeful side of me wants to think he really meant "it's better than ever, sure we've got some things to work on, but those fixes are coming, and you're really going to love the next big thing" ... the cynic in me thinks that either his "good enough" meter needs recalibrating or he's just delusional.

If only the responded on the forum instead of on Twitter where they have so few characters we are left to guess what they mean...

[MustrumRidcully]

Jestun, on 26 June 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

If only the responded on the forum instead of on Twitter where they have so few characters we are left to guess what they mean...

Why do you call out a feature as a bug?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 26 June 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[Jestun]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 June 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

Why do you call out a feature as a bug?

I know it's a pointless complaint, but I wouldn't want them to assume I'm part of the silent majority which they think support all their "features".

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Jestun, on 26 June 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

If only the responded on the forum instead of on Twitter where they have so few characters we are left to guess what they mean...

Yep ... more Command Chair posts, updates to the Dev Blogs, and an occasional "nice idea, but ..." post in threads like this and Homeless Bill's recent crusade would go a long way towards calming my worries.

Edit: I'm happily not part of the "twitterverse" ... they need to communicate with us here, on their friggin website.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 26 June 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Petroshka, on 25 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

But consider this: The Gauss Rifle is prone to asplosion, the ammo is limited, and the gauss/ppc projectiles don't have the same lead on moving targets. This makes it a much much weaker platform than a comparable alpha with ppcs.

People have been using 1 Gauss and multiple PPCs for some time so I think that is a moot point. People already know how to do it. What I find ironic is that the closer you get with those setups the easier it is to alpha and have all the projectiles hit the same spot, making them easier to brawl with than snipe.

The drawbacks to Gauss Rifles are still not going to outweigh the benefits. You can easily build a CTF with 2x Gauss and 1 ERPPC that has plenty of ammo. It will be fairly slow, ~60 kph but that is faster than a lot of assault mechs. As they add more assaults with multiple ballistic hardpoints the weight and ammo becomes less of an issue because you have more free weight available.

Imagine a STK with 4x ERPPC vs. a Victor or Battlemaster with 2x Gauss and 2x ERPPC under the new boating penalties. Against a slow moving target it is not that hard to put Gauss and PPC rounds on target. So you have one mech that can fire a 30 damage salvo then a 10 damage one .5 s later vs. one that can fire a 50 damage salvo. Skill being equal, it is easy to see who the winner will be and thus which type of mech people will gravitate toward. If the STK replaces some PPCs with lasers to avoid the boating penalty that only makes things worse for him because now he has to expose himself longer to fire his lasers and his target can easily twist or move into cover to avoid some laser damage.

It becomes a little tougher to hit a smaller faster target with both types of weapons but even just 2 Gauss rounds are enough to seriously damage any light mech. In the end though, all this boating penalty does is shift what configuration is optimal for doing high burst damage. It does not shift the meta from high burst to DPS being favored.

Edited by Lostdragon, 26 June 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Jestun, on 26 June 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

If only the responded on the forum instead of on Twitter where they have so few characters we are left to guess what they mean...

I don't know, on that twitter comment, calling ANYONE with problems out and saying "You're on an island bud" is pretty WTF to me. If the problems were in fact technical, he politely pointed him to technical support or if it was game balance, could have made a comment about improving.

Instead it seemed to take the "Everything is fine, you're all alone thinking there are problems! Remember, the problem is yours!" route.

Lostdragon, on 26 June 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Imagine a STK with 4x ERPPC vs. a Victor or Battlemaster with 2x Gauss and 2x ERPPC under the new boating penalties. Against a slow moving target it is not that hard to put Gauss and PPC rounds on target. So you have one mech that can fire a 30 damage salvo then a 10 damage one .5 s later vs. one that can fire a 50 damage salvo. Skill being equal, it is easy to see who the winner will be and thus which type of mech people will gravitate toward. If the STK replaces some PPCs with lasers to avoid the boating penalty that only makes things worse for him because now he has to expose himself longer to fire his lasers and his target can easily twist or move into cover to avoid some laser damage.

Gauss rifles are among the reasons their alpha nerf is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. There was not 2 seconds thought put into it and if there was, damn.

Edited by Victor Morson, 26 June 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Stat1cVoiD]

This dude saved me a lot of time by writing the lines I thought I had to write.

THX OP! :*

[Valore]

Victor Morson, on 26 June 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Gauss rifles are among the reasons their alpha nerf is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. There was not 2 seconds thought put into it and if there was, damn.

In the next Command Chair: Alphaing more than 2 Gauss rifles causes a chance for an internal malfunction which may cause your Gauss Rifles to explode. We believe this will alleviate the potential Gauss boating problem. #kthxbaihavefunonyourisland

[repete]

Victor Morson, on 23 June 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I'll start this post with an analogy...[snip]

NGNG needs to go an episode based on this post alone.

FupDup, on 23 June 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I won't comment on the other things right now because HOLY MOTHER OF GOD WALL O' TEXT!

Yes, but you know what. It is a good wall of text.