139 replies to this topic

[Chavette]

Prolouge:

What I name "dumbing down" or "holding hands" are these examples:

-Long ranged direct fire weapons and tactics are getting nerfed so cover is less needed. If brawlers can't 1v1 out in the open against them, nobody is brawling.
-LRMs are getting nerfed/buffed back and forth, and people only use it when its strong enough to not need guidance. If the LRM isn't viable soloing, people stop using it.
-I don't even want to bring up surprising and capping against HGN poppers as they aren't too good of an example because they had too little risk involved with a popping setup(they could brawl too well for being specialized), though I'll point out nerfing a piece of equipment to fix a mechs' OPness has a slew of side effects which I'm sure you're aware of now(2.5t assault jj-s sound like a better fix, since it will mess up their loadout or make em really slow but w/e).

The post:

People will always favor the play style that requires the least effort for the highest rewards.

This might be a shocker, but for the last two months brawling was almost as effective as ever, you just had to put a little more effort into it. Coordination, element of surprise, all that good stuff the average player have no idea even existed in mwo. And I don't really blame them, they don't really have a source on how to play the game outside from a tutorial for basic controls and monkeying what other pugs do on their same elo. How should they learn from that?

On the other hand, since we are talking about LoL alot, after 15 matches players are familiar with the current meta, and try pick a team accordingly for the highest chance of winning. Same with MMOrpg game parties. They didn't all figure it out themselves, they see it from the other players, teams, and then themselves gained the experience that it indeed works. It became part of the game culture, as most people want to win, and that specific setup has is the most effective.

Most naysayers argue it would force some cheese on all the game, and they couldn't play what they like. Its not the players' fault that some loadouts are abusively strong when used in proper coordination, its a simple game balance/design issue(ie. Ecm 3L some time ago), or poppers of the highest damaging tier.

How is PGI trying to form some game culture or teamwork incentive with no player brackets, featured livestreamers, 8v8 tournament support? They have all of these neat warfare gameplay levels planned, yet they are just letting people loose the same way a deathmatch only game would.

Instead, they just nerf everything in the world so Rambo Billybob can equip random weapons of his choice, hit W at the start of the game and have an equal chance of winning against every other play style in the game.

TLDR is prologue and the paragraph before the last one.

Edited by Chavette, 12 June 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Waking One]

Long ranged alpha snipers are low effort low danger high effectiveness easy to win...

[redacted]

Edited by miSs, 12 June 2013 - 12:46 PM.
inflammatory

[Kunae]

Waking One, on 12 June 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Long ranged alpha snipers are low effort low danger high effectiveness easy to win...

Pft.

None of the above.

[Waking One]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Pft.

None of the above.

hahahah. keep telling that to yourself

betting you think you're amazing at the game for being able to hit people at range and have an awesome k/d huh

[Vodrin Thales]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Pft.

None of the above.

Agreed.

More on topic, while I understand what Chavette is getting at I think his take is a bit overstated.

[Kunae]

Waking One, on 12 June 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

hahahah. keep telling that to yourself

betting you think you're amazing at the game for being able to hit people at range and have an awesome k/d huh

Not a sniper, myself, of any iteration. The OP, myself, and many others actually figured out how to counter these tactics rather than whining about it.

[Waking One]

Vodrin Thales, on 12 June 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Agreed.

More on topic, while I understand what Chavette is getting at I think his take is a bit overstated.

Do tell me how dangerous and skill based sitting behind a hill moving out for a shot and back in, while guaranteeing high damage to the enemy. Or poptarting before the nerf. I'd love to hear your priceless argument.

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Not a sniper, myself, of any iteration. The OP, myself, and many others actually figured out how to counter these tactics rather than whining about it.

So have I. Fact remains, PPCs are just too good for their cost and too easy to use skewing the balance completely. They're the opposite of "skill" if you will.

Edited by Waking One, 12 June 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Kunae]

Waking One, on 12 June 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

So have I. Fact remains, PPCs are just too good for their cost and too easy to use skewing the balance completely. They're the opposite of "skill" if you will.

PGI keeps "balancing for the moment" rather than for the long term. They need to revert all values back to TT/Solaris and wait until all of their systems are in before they try doing any further "balancing".

[Ralgas]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

PGI keeps "balancing for the moment" rather than for the long term. They need to revert all values back to TT/Solaris and wait until all of their systems are in before they try doing any further "balancing".

This is true of much of the game, problem is nobody wants to wait.

[Waking One]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

PGI keeps "balancing for the moment" rather than for the long term. They need to revert all values back to TT/Solaris and wait until all of their systems are in before they try doing any further "balancing".

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

PGI keeps "balancing for the moment" rather than for the long term. They need to revert all values back to TT/Solaris and wait until all of their systems are in before they try doing any further "balancing".

Possibly agreeing with that. A lot of the issues that arose after HSR came in were due to the overbuffing/nerfing of weapons when it was still a nightmare to hit anything. But they do need to keep changing things "for the moment", just need to accept that they will need to do it again very soon.

To be honest, i'd like them to use this as a proper beta instead of the bs we have now. Let people know that theyll try something, make people test it, revert if it doesn't work. Huge buff to MGs? Try it, see if it works. 2.0 DHS? try it, see how it works etc. you get the idea. We don't have much until release all in all and they should use these months to properly test it all out. Their own internal testers have proven to be useless time and time again anyway.

[Kunae]

Waking One, on 12 June 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

To be honest, i'd like them to use this as a proper beta instead of the bs we have now. Let people know that theyll try something, make people test it, revert if it doesn't work. Huge buff to MGs? Try it, see if it works. 2.0 DHS? try it, see how it works etc. you get the idea. We don't have much until release all in all and they should use these months to properly test it all out. Their own internal testers have proven to be useless time and time again anyway.

I've been playing this for about a year now. We've been asking for them to behave like that for at least a year.

They have never given us the proper tools to test with. Their "internal QA" has always been pathetic. They have never been as nimble with tweaks as they should be, given the size of the studio, not even in Closed Beta.

Edit: And this thing should still be in closed beta, in my and many other peoples' opinion.

Edited by Kunae, 12 June 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Waking One]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

I've been playing this for about a year now. We've been asking for them to behave like that for at least a year.

They have never given us the proper tools to test with. Their "internal QA" has always been pathetic. They have never been as nimble with tweaks as they should be, given the size of the studio, not even in Closed Beta.

Edit: And this thing should still be in closed beta, in my and many other peoples' opinion.

Completely agreed really, in this case.

[Jaguar Prime]

It's funny how one dimensional players always have a problem with playstyles that are outside their skill set. Instead of working to improve their game play, they would rather complain in hopes that something gets nerfed. Just to close the skill gap.

I agree with Chavette.

Imo the game is being balanced to the lowest level of play. Allowing the lower tier players to be competitive against the higher end players. I don't know if this a good thing or a bad thing. I do know I don't agree with it. For long term viability, I think they should be balancing for the highest level of play. Two games people like throw around up here (World of Warcraft and League of Legends) are both balanced at the highest levels.

[Lostdragon]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

PGI keeps "balancing for the moment" rather than for the long term. They need to revert all values back to TT/Solaris and wait until all of their systems are in before they try doing any further "balancing".

Nail on the head. Their biggest mistake imo is going to open beta and accepting real money transactions before all major systems were in. If they had waited until basically the point the game is at now (HSR fully implemented, most weapons and systems in), done 3-4 big balancing passes then gone open beta and real money transactions they would probably be in a much better place as far as user satisfaction and playability of the game.

I suspect they were under pressure to start generating revenue so they may have needed to start open beta but I feel like that is a short sighted decision by someone and it may cost them in the long run. At this point they cannot easily roll anything back, they have to manually undo it or modify it to work. Duct tape is great for a quick fix but at some point you have to peel back the layers and address the root of the issue. The longer you wait the harder that becomes.

Edited by Lostdragon, 12 June 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[Raso]

When you say brawling was effective do you mean sneaking up on some one with a dual AC20 Jager or Cat or even using your ERPPC sniper for combat with in, say, 200m? Because that's part of the problem. With SRMs made into confetti, the LBX as useless as ever, lasers requiring constant exposure to deal damage and most ACs lacking in weight to damage efficiency it's clear that there is something very wrong with the game's balance.

If making other weapons is holding the player's hands than I propose we remove all costumization. Force players to use AC40 Jagers or Cats, dual ERPPC/Gauss heavies or Highlanders or ECM Ravens and Atlas DDCs. Remove all of the other mechs and weapons because they're just wasting space on everyone's hard drive and they're just there to confuse or trick noobies into thinking that you can actually use them.

Balancing the game isn't holding a player's hand, it's making sure that players have the freedom to explore various styles of play and be rewarded for using them. Because while no one is forcing people to not use their Dragons, Cicadas, Commandos, or Awesome the really good players know they shouldn't. And that's a problem.

[Chavette]

Waking One, on 12 June 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Long ranged alpha snipers are low effort low danger high effectiveness easy to win...

[redacted]

That is relative. If they get closed up on in a balanced game they become pretty high effort.

Raso, on 12 June 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

When you say brawling was effective do you mean sneaking up on some one with a dual AC20 Jager or Cat or even using your ERPPC sniper for combat with in, say, 200m?

Yes. Althought the seismic made it more difficult, but they are tweaking it next patch, so I don't count that as an issue.

Edited by Chavette, 12 June 2013 - 01:02 PM.

[Purlana]

Chavette, on 12 June 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

That is relative. If they get closed up on in a balanced game they become pretty high effort.

It's just as from them to shoot someone with ERPPCs at 100 away, as it is for me to shoot them with my AC/20. Except my AC/20 is much easier to destroy...

Edited by Purlana, 12 June 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Blackadder]

Kunae, on 12 June 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

PGI keeps "balancing for the moment" rather than for the long term. They need to revert all values back to TT/Solaris and wait until all of their systems are in before they try doing any further "balancing".

This is why we end up with a few smart players figuring out builds, and everyone copying them, aka FOTM System. Meta will never really develop or emerge because it will be changed every month or two, based on new equipment additions, fixes to coding issues, and whatever weapon system is in rotation to be fixed, and then be obliterated once PGI fixes what players complain about.

MWO has spent the last 9-12 months on the Circle Jerk Express, in the first class section. its time it stopped.

[Splitpin]

Totally agree Chavette, pandering to the lowest common denominator is not leading to a good game. First instinct in any combat game is close with the enemy and shoot him up, but it's not or shouldn't ever be a clever one. Every change to the game seems to be a nerf, a negative. Better would be a positive, if missiles are problem, provide more cover, buff AMS, reward thought and good tactics. And all the 'balancing adjustments' to weapons and fixation on ELO while totally ignoring any balance of mechs within and between lances just leaves me dumbfounded. Seems to me every problem of 'cheese' builds is not the build itself it's that there can be too many of them. One or two pop-snipers, AC40 whatever, 6PPC Stalkers, etc etc, is not a problem, 4 or more is, that's the balance issue, not whether missiles do .8 or 1.1 damage. Nerfing this or that is just 'fiddling while Rome burns' nerfing seismic sensor while introducing 3rd person, well ummm LOL.

[Kunae]

Blackadder, on 12 June 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

This is why we end up with a few smart players figuring out builds, and everyone copying them, aka FOTM System. Meta will never really develop or emerge because it will be changed every month or two, based on new equipment additions, fixes to coding issues, and whatever weapon system is in rotation to be fixed, and then be obliterated once PGI fixes what players complain about.

MWO has spent the last 9-12 months on the Circle Jerk Express, in the first class section. its time it stopped.

Exactly.