100 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

So, how many of you pinpoint PPC Snipers out there don't use the Arm Lock toggle switch when you're ready to fire all of your weapons - in particular those of you using split arm configs like the Highlander and Cataphract?

I know I do. All the time. I always pop the key before I line up a shot to absolutely maximize convergence. That's when it hit me: I think I've found the biggest problem with snipers. This stupid "training wheels" feature that hurts newbies skill anyway by defaulting to locked has effectively allowed 'mechs that are almost impossible to sync long range shots with to get pin point shots.

Yes, I say almost impossible. Why? Because the torso trails behind the arms, meaning you have to hold still for a bit of time before you can line up a perfect shot - compared to arm lock where I can simply press SHIFT and immediately snap all my guns to that one location.

I had a post up before thinking it was a problem but it has really just hit me that's when almost all of the "pinpoint" trouble talk started ; it came in around the same time as the PPC, and I think as a result has been overlooked.

It is also important to note that hitting the arm lock key moves your torso as speeds it could not otherwise achieve. That alone is helping quick snap shots. In addition to the fact it allows you to accurately move your torso guns - even Torso-only 'mechs are impacted by arm lock, because otherwise the torso guns "float" behind the targeting cursor, making shots require much more skill.

Thus my recommendation: Remove Arm Lock immediately. For at least one patch. Let's see how it impacts higher level play - this feature was meant literally as new player training wheels and has turned into the equivalent of the "Press a button to breathe" sniper game element.

Having played several test matches purposely avoiding arm lock - something I haven't done in months - I can honestly say I now believe it hugely responsible for some of the larger aiming problems. Without it, simply put, sniper fire is unavoidably scattered and far, far more difficult to aim.

EDIT: I'd ask if you are considering replying that you do a few drops in a current meta sniper build - Like a 3 PPC/1 Gauss Highlander or the like - and try them without ever using your arm lock toggle and watch the results. I had a theory it could be making the problems worse, but after doing this, I'm now convinced it's actually at least 50% responsible for them. Landing both arm & torso weapons on a single location at extreme range is nearly impossible against a moving target without arm lock.. it's arrival with the PPC Speed buff and it's "Not talked about noob training thing" status has made it go off the radar, but I know for a fact ALL the good snipers use it on toggle to line up shots. That wasn't the intended purpose, not that the intended purpose was very good!

Edited by Victor Morson, 24 June 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Deadmeat313]

Well spotted! I second this motion.

[Corvus Antaka]

I agree. id like to see the circle float about an inch even when locked and need a sec to converge first.

[Gallowglas]

Just make it so that the resultant convergence is normal speed. I don't think the mechanic itself is terrible, but I'd agree that it shouldn't allow snap-convergence.

[AnnoyingCat]

but with arm lock on, they can't wiggle their arms and do a little dance

[Shalune]

I voted other because I'd be all for this idea, but I don't see it solving the problem. Mechs could still fit 4 PPCs on only torso or arms.

[Dracol]

Well written and great catch. Are you sure the speed of the torso recticle speeds up though?

I was under the impression it would slow down the arm recticle. I don't run builds that would benifit from it so i am unfamiliar with the specifics.

[Sephlock]

Didn't just about everyone immediately shut off arm lock and never turn it on again?

[Zordicron]

IMO, armlock should just restrict arm motion by 65%. The two crosshairs should still move independaently, but arm lock should put a significant limit on how far the arm crosshair can move in relation to the torso. N00b trainer still functions, but doesnt eliminate the core mechanic entirely, which would help both the training aspect, and as a side effect eliminate the sniper crutch.

I think we cant just remove it entirely. i was spectating a hunchback 4P the other day, obviously new-ish(possibly a trial?) and as he was trying to brawl a catapult, it was obvious he didnt understand how most of his lasers were on one crosshair and a few were on the other. He would switch between the two, trying to line them up, and the other would be way off. Armlock would have gone a long way for this guy. BUT I dont think it should be complete removal of the two crosshairs in function. How would this new guy learn how to use both arms and torso together if they were just automatically together? And sure, it would make it easier for him initially, but if when there is no motion at all for the arms, it also becomes a major point of frustration when certain mechs cant shoot anything up a 10 degree grade because of arm lock. So while it helps make it easier, it makes it harder too, if that makes any sense. I think haveing a limit, but still some motion, would be a good middle ground that helps new players, but doesnt make them suffer through the no vertical shot ability.

[HansBlix WMD]

Does arm lock really help torso-only weapons, like jager AC40s?

[Steel Will]

I think this is a pretty minor part of the overall problem and also don't believe it's unreasonable for a mech to have this ability. I also don't think it speeds up torso movement as I looked to see if pressing the arm lock snapped the torso to the arm or vice versa and it seemed to be the latter. There's also the issue of the reticule continuing to float when you stop moving the mouse to that invisible point the arms would have been aiming at had the lock been off and the inability to track quick/long mouse movements that are capable with the lock disabled. Your other post was pretty spot on but I think you're picking nits here.

Edited by Steel Will, 24 June 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Soy]

I toggle to arm lock via hotkey bind maybeeeeeee mmmm, 30-40% of my shots. Rest are already lined up, I'm using a different firing rhythm than pinpoint alpha, require diff angle, off to the side, etc. You get better torso twist and control if you don't stay locked in, so I only use it for shooting. Think soaking.

It's really boss in poptarting (really, it's what saved it from being TRULY nerfed) and in pinpointing lights for 1 shots, shoulder shots on xls, 180 no scope alphas at streaks chasing u, etc. It's beast. I think a lot of tarts and snipers use arm lock 100% of time.

Edited by Soy, 24 June 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Ghogiel]

It's not a toggle.

and the only thing it breaks is my shift key :/

[Zordicron]

Sephlock, on 24 June 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Didn't just about everyone immediately shut off arm lock and never turn it on again?

I think it is safe to think most players on the forums have indeed done this, unless a purpose built loadout makes use of the feature.
However, forumite also have in general taught themselves through digging/playing/reading the ropes of the game. while spectating some new players, it becomes obvious many do not know of the function, how it impacts their play, or its benefits or detriments.

PGI, for UI 2.0, allow armlock to be selectable per mech, and put a little checkbox for it and throttle decay right next to the mech in mechlab. This way, it is highly visible to player, even new ones, and also not simply all or nothing global settings for all mechs. Some tool tip while highlighting the option checkbox or name of it would be excellent as well.

[Victor Morson]

Sephlock, on 24 June 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Didn't just about everyone immediately shut off arm lock and never turn it on again?

Almost all of us snipers shut it off and then press it about a quarter second before we want to line up a pinpoint shot, because it immediately will snap your torso guns into alignment with your arms with no trailing downside or wait time.

All I have to do to insure 100% convergence between a torso side and PPC arms is press shift, basically. Even if I'm pointing as far away from my torso aim point as possible, it'll instantly snap into position anyway.

Edited by Victor Morson, 24 June 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Victor Morson, on 24 June 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Almost all of us snipers shut it off and then press it about a quarter second before we want to line up a pinpoint shot, because it immediately will snap your torso guns into alignment with your arms with no trailing downside or wait time.

All I have to do to insure 100% convergence between a torso side and PPC arms is press shift, basically.

This

[Roland]

Quote

It is also important to note that hitting the arm lock key moves your torso as speeds it could not otherwise achieve.

I don't believe this is actually the case.

When you hit the arm lock button, it snaps your arm reticle to your torso reticle, not the other way around. Normally, the camera tracks your arm reticle, and when you hit the arm lock button it jump back, because it's snapping back to where your torso is.

I just tested this, and I'm pretty sure this is how it works. So I don't believe it can actually give you an advantage in torso twist speed.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Been playing for months and I use arm lock for a differnt reason. I am near blind and cannot see the cricle most often. Dont really care if jerks call me a noob because of it. It will make the game unplayable for me. On good days I can use shift when i need to. Try sometimes to take in consideration we are not all the same here and understand its one of the good things for some of us.

[Victor Morson]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't believe this is actually the case.

When you hit the arm lock button, it snaps your arm reticle to your torso reticle, not the other way around.

Having done this a lot, I can definitely say it is Torso -> Arm for the snap. If it's far enough away, sometimes they meet in the middle slightly, favoring the arm. Either way, though, effectively it would still let you do the same thing: Roughly converge over a target in the distance, hit shift, and then instantly fully converge on them instead.

Without arm lock, you could still snipe but the odds of both your arm and torso weapons hitting the same spot would be drastically lower, unless you have enough time to let them "settle" which requires way more skill leading your shots.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Victor Morson, on 24 June 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Almost all of us snipers shut it off and then press it about a quarter second before we want to line up a pinpoint shot, because it immediately will snap your torso guns into alignment with your arms with no trailing downside or wait time.

All I have to do to insure 100% convergence between a torso side and PPC arms is press shift, basically. Even if I'm pointing as far away from my torso aim point as possible, it'll instantly snap into position anyway.

If that's true, then It's really just another thing PGI messed up implementing in this game and didn't bother to do any real testing.

And odds are it will continue to be that way for another 5-6 months.