50 replies to this topic

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

I understand that many other have presented their own complicated pet ideas on how to fix this aspect of the game (PGI included) but can we all agree that the problem an be addressed balance-wise with a scalpel instead of a butcher knife?

I don't want arbitrary numbers assigned to each weapon for specific heat penalties, I don't want a learn a new targeting computer system added as an additional resource to manage and I don't want them to completely change the way how heat works.

Based on good and practical solutions suggested by others I think the following would work without too much work on the part of the developers and not overly confuse players:

1: Increase PPC heat by a slight margin to make them less heat-efficient than other energy weapon alternatives

2: Mech takes internal damage upon overheating above 125% (or permanent damage to heat sinks)

3: When a mech shuts down, all weapons are placed on cooldown upon powering up (initializing weapons), decreasing DPS by increasing downtime of weapons due to reckless use (would be easy to apply this globally, when a match starts and your 'mech is powering up, the weapons have to come off cooldown also for example)

4: Slightly decrease/increase the projectile speeds of the PPC/ERPPC/gauss/ac for the purpose of preventing/discouraging players from alpha striking from long distance

5: This one is more ambitious: Let's fix the convergence system for alpha strikes, if you are firing at a target that you do not have a reticle box lock on, your weapons will not converge. So for example if you wanted to chain fire PPCs (or 2 PPCs on one hardpoint) at a target 800 meters away with no lock they will still all hit the same spot, but if you alpha a unlocked target then all your weapons will go straight ahead and land in different spots.

-This would help make ECM more useful as well, and allow sniping in coordination with scouts (spotters), leading to more strategy.
-Also this would be a long term fix to allow ECM to help defend you from AC40 instagibs that everyone has been complaining about, no lock, no convergence.
-This would also encourage people to use target lock on what they are shooting at more often leading to more teamwork in spotting assists.

I feel this would fix 99% of the boating problems and not take too much effort to accomplish both on the part of the devs and the players.

Edited by Duck Butter, 24 June 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[William Mountbank]

Seems reasonable to me. A speed decrease would also reduce PPC effectiveness against lights, increasing the risk of using it.

[Kaldor]

I can get behind all the ideas except number 4. Pretty decent otherwise. Add in a heat cap reduction, increase dissipation, and call the heat portion of the game fixed?

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

The state of the meta is such that it is better to make small changes one at a time. Don't pull a PGI and throw several changes against the wall and see what sticks.

Duck Butter, on 20 June 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

3: When a mech shuts down, all weapons are placed on cooldown upon powering up, decreasing DPS by increasing downtime of weapons due to reckless use

A shutdown in the heat of battle is usually death anyway. Why add the extra penalty?

Duck Butter, on 20 June 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

4: Slightly decrease the projectile speed of the PPC for the purpose of preventing players from alpha striking combined with gauss

Just an FYI, Gauss projectile travels at 1200 m/s.PPC travels at 2000 m/s. Decreasing travel time would actually make it easier to make PPC+Gauss hit the same location.

Decreasing speed would make it harder for PPCs to hit fast moving targets, which would be a good thing.

Edited by Eldragon, 20 June 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[BootHands]

Duck Butter, on 20 June 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

snip

PPCs and boating are not a problem.....

[Acid Phase]

BootHands, on 20 June 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

PPCs and boating are not a problem.....

You're right, they are....

Boating with mechs not meant to be boats is ridiculous. So how can PGI stop this, if some of the community is against hardpoint size limits?

[redreaper]

Think they just need to put ppc and erppc heat bk up to what they were previously and go from there i think they were 10 and 15 heat respectively before.

Edited by redreaper, 20 June 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Davoke]

I see so many PPC boats I want to cry.

Oh wait, the last 10 matches I've played have had how many?

Oh, none. The game is working right now, boating is down, and the worst I've seen was a laughable 8 MPLas Awesome. Seriously, I must be missing out on all this boating and QQing going on, or people are just getting unlucky. I get killed by LRM's paired up with AC/LLas support mechs way more often than anything else.(which in turn, is a legitimate strategy)

[MustrumRidcully]

What is the shutdown time currently? Anyone ever measured that?

Imported from the table top, it should be a full turn, which is 10 seconds, but I doubt it's that high. 10 seconds are an eternity in which an AC/40 Jagermech can put 120 damage into your mech...

Maybe we shoul raise the shutdown time?

But with the high heat cap and low dissipation; I am not sure it can work...

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Davoke, on 20 June 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

I see so many PPC boats I want to cry.

Oh wait, the last 10 matches I've played have had how many?

You are clearly not playing the same game I'm playing. Because every match I play has at least four PPC/Gauss boats on each side.

[Homeless Bill]

If it doesn't fix ballistics, it isn't a sufficient solution. Putting a bandaid on PPCs instead of addressing the core issue is a total waste of time.

Ballistics only aren't bad right now because there's no assault 'mech that can effectively boat them - you have to sacrifice a lot on both the AC/40 Jager and Cat. You wouldn't think PPCs were a problem either if there was no assault 'mech that could mount 4+ PPCs. There would be heavies that do it, but they have to sacrifice a lot and wouldn't be reviled like the current metagame, just like the AC/40 builds of now.

The UAC/20 is going to bring this game a world of pain; we either can fix the entire problem now, or we can put a patch on it, sweep it under the rug, and wait for it to show up later.

Edit: Though I totally agree with your overheating penalties. Shutdown should be serious business.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 20 June 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Boating is not a problem. The problem is all your weapons hit exactly the same spot. That is the underlying issue and boating is just a symptom of that because as long as you have perfect convergence then the best possible weapons are direct fire weapons and the best of those are PPCs and GRs.

The changes proposed may help reduce PPC boating a bit but not boating in general. When they release a mech capable of fielding three Gauss Rifles then heat based "solutions" to boating become ineffective (this also applies to the ridiculous method PGI has stated they are going to use).

Boating is popular because it is easy and effective due to other mechanics. If you want to stop boating the only way to actually do that is hardpoint restrictions. I am not in favor of that solution because I think if you address the convergence issue in conjunction with reworking heat a bit then boating becomes a non-issue.

Edited by Lostdragon, 20 June 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[Syllogy]

Because giant stompy robots in space is realistic.

[PhoenixFire55]

Its more about the nature of the game right now if you ask me. Battles tend to be 'sit-in-the-trench-take-a-pop-shot-here-and-there' kinda style. No matter what heat penalties you impose on PPC boats they'll just do same tactics, same thing with pop-shots just less often.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Weapons on reload / power-up after a shutdown is a really nice idea and it should be in the game! You usually shut down right after the shot. In that moment, ballistic and missiles reload mechanisms should power down, too. And lasers should loose their power at all, so it's only natural they have to recharge again after the shutdown.

It is so unbelievable reasonable that we'll certainly never ever see it ingame!

[Livewyr]

Admittedly, I opened up this thread expecting a *sigh*, however...
1: I would say back to 10 for the PPC, and up to 13 for the ERPPC
2: I suggested that to Paul's 150% idea.. except mine was 120%, regardless of whether you were shut down or not. (Being that irresponsible SHOULD punish you heavily)
3: I hadn't thought of that idea, and I kind of like it. (Although perhaps instead of resetting all weapons to max cooldown, just freezing them in place? Would serve the same purpose of dealing with alpha strike boaters, without penalizing someone who got crazy with their medium lasers but never fired their gauss.. if that makes sense)
4: I think 1350 would work. A little faster than gauss, and not practically hitscan.

+1 for newer idea in number 3

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

These ideas have merit.

As for projectile speed, I advocate keeping the ERPPC high and lowering the velocity on standard PPC rounds. This reflects the PPC's role as a medium-range fire-support cannon and the ERPPC's long-range focus and enhanced accuracy. It also makes it harder to combo standard and ER PPCs into single alphas.

[AnnoyingCat]

how about in order to make their boat move, the player have to manually row it?

[MustrumRidcully]

AnnoyingCat, on 20 June 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

how about in order to make their boat move, the player have to manually row it?

Hump Hump Hump the Hill, gently down the ridge... [/lalala]

[Henree]

put r&r back and make ppc's hella expensive to buy