56 replies to this topic

[Valore]

Random question of the day.

When Clan stuff comes out, if it works as intended, should absolutely obsolete IS stuff.

Since we're not balancing by money/economy, and no plans are in place for BV, a crude but possibly effective balance would be by the numbers.

Say if we ended up only being able to play IS vs Clan through by having 5 v 8 or 10 v 12 teams. [For those who are unaware, that's one Clan Star vs 2 IS Lances, or 2 Stars vs 3 Lances]

Would you find that appealing?

Another possible interesting twist is having solo drop only for Clans, while IS have no limitations.

We'd still leave a FFA game mode, but treat it as though that ends up as a 'bring your best one shotter big alpha or go home' game mode, while this proposal is the one that the game's balanced for.

Just thought it would be something more fun to talk about than all the usual boring stuff

Edited by Valore, 25 June 2013 - 02:25 AM.

[Brilig]

I don't think its a good solution.
What about mixed drops? Or clan weapons/equipment on IS mechs?

[Ralgas]

Brilig, on 25 June 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

I don't think its a good solution.
What about mixed drops? Or clan weapons/equipment on IS mechs?

Clan weapons only makes the IS glass cannons, it won't make up numbers. 10v12 *should* happen although that may still be too far in the clans favor.

[mike29tw]

It'd be much, much harder to balance 5 vs 8 or 10 vs 12 than to balance ClanTech itself IMO.

Then again, if CW matches actually have some meaningful objectives rather than "standing in squares" and "eliminate the other team", I could be wrong.

[Mr 144]

5v8 = good
10v12 = Clans easily OP

[Valore]

Brilig, on 25 June 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

I don't think its a good solution.
What about mixed drops? Or clan weapons/equipment on IS mechs?

Assume we'd have 2 modes: IS vs Clan, for those who want a bit of flavour, and free for all, which would be normal 12 v 12 or 8 v 8 with anything you want to bring.

[Demos]

Imagine fights with clanTech. Same armor levels as now, but more destructive weapons.
What should PGI do? Triple the armor values?

I'm totally against mixed drops and especially clan equipment on Is chassis.
battles should be
IS vs IS (as now)
clan vs. clan (I will pity you; short and brutal)
or voluntarily IS vs. Clan.

As now Battle Value is available, these fights should be balanced by numbers and tonnage.
So no clan striker force versus pondering IS assault force, but an e.g. (primarily) heavy weight clan force versus a (primarily) heavy IS force.
The balancing depends on the approach, PGI choose for Clan weapons, but as a first indication it should be 5v8 or 10v16.
10v12 will give no balancing when clan weapons are signifantly superior to IS weapons.*

* Yeah, I know, in the lore the clan weapons ARE significantly superior. But by tweaking RoF they could be brought more in line with their IS counterparts. So clan weapons would be heavy hitter, but due to longer cooldowns the DPS would be roughly comparable to IS. Analogeous to MW4.

[Devil Fox]

Demos, on 25 June 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

Imagine fights with clanTech. Same armor levels as now, but more destructive weapons.
What should PGI do? Triple the armor values?

Since they doubled armour values due to how quickly mechs were dieing... their now doubling internal structure because of the same issue... I don't think PGI can continue to fix issues by making numbers bigger, they actually have to sit down and do a full overhaul of their weapon/armour systems, because something is broken and taping bits of the record back together doesn't make it good as new.

[Mr 144]

Apostal, on 25 June 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Since they doubled armour values due to how quickly mechs were dieing... their now doubling internal structure because of the same issue... I don't think PGI can continue to fix issues by making numbers bigger, they actually have to sit down and do a full overhaul of their weapon/armour systems, because something is broken and taping bits of the record back together doesn't make it good as new.

Internal structure was doubled at the same time armor was doubled.

[TOGSolid]

The best way to deal with clan mechs is to limit them the same way they're limited in TT (yes, TT, sometimes it has the best ways to handle things yanno). Make Omnimechs only have their Omnislots if you keep the internals stock. If you want to swap your internals or any other specifically hardwired systems out, then you lose your omnislots and the Clan mechs become just like IS mechs. Either your mech has flexible weapon hardpoints or flexible internals. Choose, but choose wisely.

It'd be as simple as making it a checkbox just like Endo or Ferro.

As far as their tech goes, the only way that can be dealt with is by properly fixing all the problems we have right now. All Clan tech will do is make it far more blatantly obvious that this game is broken. Mektek's MW4:M overhaul also made it a point to have Clan tech run hotter than IS tech. It gave IS tech an actual good use.

As far as the LRMs go, that'll be a matter of PGI getting rid of the ability for our LRMs to make stupidly sharp turns to keep them from being too ********. Streaks should hopefully not be an issue if the SSRM fix works as it should.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 June 2013 - 01:32 AM.

[Mycrus]

OP suggestion + clain points to get clan gear..

Moar assists reduces clan points..

[TOGSolid]

Mycrus, on 25 June 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

OP suggestion + clain points to get clan gear..

Moar assists reduces clan points..

People will just hold fire and only focus on kill shots/singled out mechs to farm points. It'd make pug matches even more infuriating.

[Ralgas]

Mr 144, on 25 June 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Internal structure was doubled at the same time armor was doubled.

And in a recent interview they are considering upping it again

[dario03]

(I'll just post a edited version of my post from a similar thread.) This system could have a couple problems, which would be the problem of balancing pugs and premades. If clans are as powerful as people say and aren't nerfed by anything but numbers then I would think pug matches would favor the clans. 5v8 or 10v12 with organized teams could favor the IS mechs since if they all work together they should be over to over come the better but out numbered mechs. (These numbers aren't to bad but the other thread I posted in had it as 5v12)
Another problem could be actually having enough people playing on IS side. I know when I'm pugging I have no idea if the guy next to me is a great player, a decent player, or literally a noob that just started playing the game. I also don't know if the team is going to stick together for the whole game, stick together and then run off at the first sign of trouble, or just run in every direction at the start. So given the choice of having a super awesome mech and only 4 or 9 teammates vs having a ok mech and 7 or 11 teammates I'm going to take the super awesome mech.
And I think a lot of people will think the same because they want power, just look at how many threads we have where people complain about so many people using the FOTM builds or threads with people complaining that their Atlas doesn't crush every other mech with ease. Sure some die hard battletech guys might only play IS and some people will play both but really I think we would end up with more people wanting to play clans and in reality you would need more people on the IS side so that wouldn't work. They would have to also have clan vs clan, or randomly make people be on IS (maybe make everyone own at least one IS mech and have you select both a clan and IS mech before launch).

Edited by dario03, 25 June 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Adridos]

Brilig, on 25 June 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Or clan weapons/equipment on IS mechs?

That's definitely a no-go.

Not only it will rule out all the IS equipment (because it takes an ***** to use LRMs when he can use CLRMs, for example), but it would also kill off the Clan mechs, as they are less customisable than their IS brethren and giving those with greater customisation the weapons with the same punch is not a good idea.

As far as other suggestions go... no matter hwat happens, Clans mustn't be allowed to break the Zell rules. They can and will build mechs that one-shot Atlases and if anyone allows such mechs to go a bit lower, but have their friends focus fire with teh same caliber of weaponry... well, you see where I'm going with it.

Edited by Adridos, 25 June 2013 - 01:42 AM.

[Valore]

dario03, on 25 June 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

I'll just post a edited version of my post from a similar thread. This system could have a couple problems, which would be the problem of balancing pugs and premades. If clans are as powerful as people say and aren't nerfed by anything but numbers then I would think pug matches would favor the clans. 5v8 or 10v12 with organized teams could favor the IS mechs since if they all work together they should be over to over come the better but out numbered mechs. (These numbers aren't to bad but the other thread I posted in had it as 5v12)
Another problem could be actually having enough people playing on IS side. I know when I'm pugging I have no idea if the guy next to me is a great player, a decent player, or literally a noob that just started playing the game. I also don't know if the team is going to stick together for the whole game, stick together and then run off at the first sign of trouble, or just run in every direction at the start. So given the choice of having a super awesome mech and only 4 or 9 teammates vs having a ok mech and 7 or 11 teammates I'm going to take the super awesome mech.
And I think a lot of people will think the same because they want power, just look at how many threads we have where people complain about so many people using the FOTM builds or threads with people complaining that their Atlas doesn't crush every other mech with ease. Sure some die hard battletech guys might only play IS and some people will play both but really I think we would end up with more people wanting to play clans and in reality you would need more people on the IS side so that wouldn't work. They would have to also have clan vs clan, or randomly make people be on IS (maybe make everyone own at least one IS mech and have you select both a clan and IS mech before launch).

I would totally go for that, and its a suggestion I've also made as well previously.

Clan vs IS, IS can drop in organised groups, Clans are solo drops only. That would be interesting to play.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

Clan vs IS, IS can drop in organised groups, Clans are solo drops only. That would be interesting to play.

That'd be kinda neat, but fracturing the player base even more is kinda 'ehhhhh.' Besides, the inevitable Hero Timberwolf (Mad Cat) is going to sell like ******** hotcakes (if anyone is left playing this) and PGI is not going to want to limit how those things can be played. It'd be a silly decision from a business sense.

[Mahnmut]

How about 12v12 but IS get a limited number of re-spawns? Like the dropship mode PGI talked about a while back.

[Brilig]

Adridos, on 25 June 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Not only it will rule out all the IS equipment (because it takes an ***** to use LRMs when he can use CLRMs, for example), but it would also kill off the Clan mechs, as they are less customisable than their IS brethren and giving those with greater customisation the weapons with the same punch is not a good idea.

As far as other suggestions go... no matter hwat happens, Clans mustn't be allowed to break the Zell rules. They can and will build mechs that one-shot Atlases and if anyone allows such mechs to go a bit lower, but have their friends focus fire with teh same caliber of weaponry... well, you see where I'm going with it.

I'm hoping that Clan weapons will get implemented in such a way that they are not clear upgrades of IS weapons. As TOGSolid mentioned above they could do something like what they did in MW4, and make Clan weapons run significantly hotter.

I am also hoping we get a decent fix to our current pinpoint damage alpha strike issues before Clan tech makes it in. If we do not then Clans will bring 90 damage pinpoint strikes in with them. If Dire Wolves start 2 shotting Atlases there will be no hope for IS VS Clan matches.

[Jestun]

But... it's not the only way to balance them. The figures for clan mechs are not hard-coded into the game engine and unable to be changed, it's a simple lore vs. gameplay issue.