56 replies to this topic

[IceSerpent]

Valore, on 25 June 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

LOL. You're expecting community warfare. I'm thinking the odds of that coming out before Clan tech is 50/50 at best.

It has nothing to do with CW really - I am talking about Clan mechs and IS mechs being on the same team in general. If you prevent it from happening, you would run into even more problems with matchmaker due to smaller pool of players to choose from. If you allow it to happen, then your 5v8 idea kind of goes out of the window.

[Novakaine]

I had suggested this in an earlier post.
So PGI let's do this.
This is a simple solution and canon too.

[FupDup]

I hate to burst your guys' bubble, but the 5v8, 10v12, etc. ratios probably won't work in MWO the same way they worked in TT. Why? Let's take a look:

1. Convergence
1a. You hit where you want to hit. In TT, a Clan mech boating lots of weapons would rarely all hit the same place (same goes for IS mechs but their individual weapons were also weaker).
1b. Mechs like the Timber Wolf will be completely buttf*cked by hitboxes. I'm going to predict the TW being dead-on-arrival.


2. Customization (TT was stock IS mechs versus stock Clan)
2a. The majority of stock mechs were designed with 5-6 different weapon groups and no specialties. In MWO, such a playstyle is a good way to get your butt handed to you by a specialized mech using no greater than 3 groups.
2b. Clan stock mechs usually came with equal armor or greater when compared to IS stock mechs of similar weight. In the case of heat sinks, most Clan mechs were actually cooler running due to DHS (most IS stocks at this time were SHS). Most IS customs in MWO take maximum armor and a lot of DHS.
2c. IS mechs in TT were virtualy never customized due to huge costs and time consumption. In MWO, IS mechs are even faster and cheaper to refit than Omnis...therefore nullifying the Omni advantage completely.
2d. Players in TT were usually a bunch of old gentlemen who played fairly and used mixed weapons because they loved the lore. In MWO, players are cutthroat powergamers who will do anything it takes to gain an advantage. Expect to see Ghetto Hellstars (4 CERPPC, 30 DHS) and Banes everywhere.


3. Heat scale
3a. No heat scale penalties
3b. We reach shutdown a lot faster here


4. Doubled armor


5. Reload times change weapon performance when compared to TT
5a. Also projectile speeds and other various mechanics also cause the "meta" to be much different here
5b. UAC's in particular will probably give an edge to Clanners (UAC/20 will be terrifyingly broken if it inherits the same mechanics as the UAC/5).


6. No repair and rearm
6a. Omnimechs were actually known for being very easy and fast to repair due to their modular nature (i.e. if your pod gets blown off you can just pop in a new one). In MWO, standard IS Battlemechs are faster and easier to repair than Omnis were. This is another advantage that the Clanners (and Omnis in general) lose.



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Ya'll need to realize that a different ratio is probably in order. Saying "5v8 or 10v12 becuz TT!" is foolish in MWO where we're the opposite of TT. Maybe Clanners will be weaker in MWO than in TT. Maybe they'll be stronger in MWO than TT. What I can almost guarentee you is that they will not be of identical effectiveness so fixating on the "sacred" ratios simply will not work in Mechwarrior: Online.

Edited by FupDup, 25 June 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

Have the Clan mech pilots declare a batchall vs a specific player(s) or mech(s)

Once the IS breaks that then let slip the pugs o war

[Bunko]

Everyone is getting excited about Clan tech, News Flash: Clan Tech is going to be balanced with IS Tech.

Clan tech will have it's perks but will have also disadvantages that IS does not have. It being more damage but less range, faster fire but higher heat, lighter weight but more crit slots.

And I will laugh if all Clan tech is only purchasable by MC.

[FunkyFritter]

I don't see asymmetrical teams ever working out. Player skill variance is too significant for some set of numbers to exist that would lead to good matches on a consistent basis.

[Lightfoot]

I would suggest the voting options be 8v5 or 12v10 or Neither.

12v10 is pretty likely, but the only thing that will balance the IS and Clans is cross-tech. So I will be in the Mad Cat helping PGI to see the light.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The way to balance clan tech is simple. Tonnage limits. Clan tech should cost double the weight as far as tonnage limits go regarding game balance. This means every match will have the same amount of players, but clan users will either have to carry their team, or be proficent at using lights/meds.

No easymode assaults for clan nubs!

Edited by lockwoodx, 25 June 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[IceSerpent]

lockwoodx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The way to balance clan tech is simple. Tonnage limits. Clan tech should cost double the weight as far as tonnage limits go regarding game balance. This means every match will have the same amount of players, but clan users will either have to carry their team, or be proficent at using lights/meds.

No easymode assaults for clan nubs!

Every problem has at least one simple, easy to understand, INCORRECT solution ©. Did it ever occur to you that current FOTM mech (Stalker) is not the heaviest?

Edited by IceSerpent, 25 June 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

No. I don't care much for the handicapped match idea at all.

I believe if the mechanics of the game can be balanced out better to resolve some of the state of the game's meta we'll find the clantech levels of the game might be tolerable to actually work out.


Besides, IIRC Mercenaries often used whatever they could get ahold of which included clantech on certain levels - and would work for IS likes, so mixed fights wouldn't be uncommon. We'll just likely see mixed groups involving whatever depending on the sides your on, much like now.


Would need a serious overhaul in the matchmaking system to balance the techs tho.

[dario03]

lockwoodx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The way to balance clan tech is simple. Tonnage limits. Clan tech should cost double the weight as far as tonnage limits go regarding game balance. This means every match will have the same amount of players, but clan users will either have to carry their team, or be proficent at using lights/meds.

No easymode assaults for clan nubs!

You better make it so clan mechs can't cap then (or at least cap slower). Otherwise you will have a lot of capping clanners.

[Monky]

For IS vs Clan, there's no reason not to.

2 clan stars vs 3 lances would be perfectly viable with reasonably balanced weapons/tech.

[James Warren]

I could be satisfied with that solution, however...

I don't think it would work. Players will naturally flock towards the 'more powerful' mech, as can be seen today by the sheer number of heavies and assaults. A lot of people are naturally obsessed with K/D ratios and being the 'best'. Nothing you can do to change that really, its just human nature and ego.

Balancing Clan vs IS with numbers will be similar to the way in which mediums are balanced against heavies and assaults currently. Most people will want to be on the Clan side.

As a result, if you have say 70% of the playerbase selecting Clan mechs, but you need proportionally more Inner Sphere mechs per match, Clan players will be waiting in queue for enough Inner Sphere players to drop.

I like the lore, but in this case I think gameplay is far more important. The matchmaker is having a hard enough time as it is.

EDIT: It would be cool to have a game-mode that allowed for asymmetrical drops though, to recreate Clan vs IS battles and included a say 20% bonus modifier to clan tech, which would otherwise be balanced to its IS equivalents.

Edited by James Warren, 25 June 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Valore]

James Warren, on 25 June 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

I could be satisfied with that solution, however...

I don't think it would work. Players will naturally flock towards the 'more powerful' mech, as can be seen today by the sheer number of heavies and assaults. A lot of people are naturally obsessed with K/D ratios and being the 'best'. Nothing you can do to change that really, its just human nature and ego.

Balancing Clan vs IS with numbers will be similar to the way in which mediums are balanced against heavies and assaults currently. Most people will want to be on the Clan side.

As a result, if you have say 70% of the playerbase selecting Clan mechs, but you need proportionally more Inner Sphere mechs per match, Clan players will be waiting in queue for enough Inner Sphere players to drop.

I like the lore, but in this case I think gameplay is far more important. The matchmaker is having a hard enough time as it is.

EDIT: It would be cool to have a game-mode that allowed for asymmetrical drops though, to recreate Clan vs IS battles and included a say 20% bonus modifier to clan tech, which would otherwise be balanced to its IS equivalents.

While you may be exactly right, I think it'd be fascinating to trial it and see. Especially if we introduce the caveat that if you drop in a Clan mech its solo only, while IS mechs have no such restriction.

It certainly wouldn't be much worse than the current MM condition

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I think 12IS vs 10 Clan would work fine with the superior clan tech. I'd go so far as to say that PGI should also make the clan pilots slightly higher ELO than their IS counter parts to better reflect the general superiority of clan pilots.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 25 June 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Pericles]

Brilig, on 25 June 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

I don't think its a good solution.
What about mixed drops? Or clan weapons/equipment on IS mechs?

Its already been stated you won't be able to put clan tech on IS mechs, I as a Clansman like this idea though, it would allow us to drop in our Stars instead of an IS lance.

[Xmith]

Asymmetric drops won't happen. What will happen is that everyone will switch to clan tech. I most likely will switch.