387 replies to this topic

[BarHaid]

Artgathan, on 10 July 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

I agree that it helps break up the alpha, I'm just concerned we'll eventually see a heavy or assault mech with 4 energy hard points in a single location (allowing for a 40 pt alpha strike) which would effectively invalidate this solution.

Well, it only invalidates the solution in very limited cases. I would not expect to see the sudden resurgence of the swayback if the reactive retical were implemented.

[DocBach]

Theoretically a Clan OmniMech can fit 5 ER PPC's in a single location; however, that would make all of its firewpower in a single location, which would be sort of like, "putting all the eggs in one basket" - in the current system you can put five ER PPC's across a 'Mech and they still all hit the same location, and if you take out a single location it usually still has more weapons in other locations, A 'Mech who places all of his firepower in a single location could find itself completely out of weapons if it loses that location.

[Artgathan]

BarHaid, on 10 July 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Well, it only invalidates the solution in very limited cases. I would not expect to see the sudden resurgence of the swayback if the reactive retical were implemented.

But the current problem being solved is only applied in limited cases. The mechs that are capable of mounting the loadouts that this change will control account for 10% of all the variants in the game.

[DocBach]

As far as I know, the only 'Mechs that can reasonably shoot three PPC's from a single location to a single impact point in the suggested form are a Highlander and the 4P Hunchback -- which is still much less than currently where instant convergence allows certain 'Mechs to put up to six PPC's into a single impact location.

Edited by DocBach, 10 July 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Artgathan]

At the moment you are correct. However the upcoming Battlemaster and Thunderbolt both have 3 energy hardpoints in torso sections.

I agree that it's a good solution for the moment and it definitely prevents 2 X AC20 attacks and Gauss + PPC shots. However there is a key flaw which needs addressing, lest we see everyone flock to the first mech that can successfully mount 4 PPC (or 6 Clan ERPPC) on a torso section.

[SmurfOff]

My only addition would be to have convergence improve over time if you stop. (or maybe you included this idea, and I missed it in the skipping). This way, if I choose to sit and wait, then my accuracy will be dictated by my aim, and not some arbitrary nerf. But if I am moving, a little "slop" in the aim would be expected.

[DocBach]

Your movement speed doesn't effect speed of convergence, but it affects the maximum your guns can converge.

[Theodor Kling]

About "boating in once zone". A crude solution might be to have no convergence for weapons within a zone. So the central aim points for each weapon mounting zone converge, but the spread of the weapons within one zone is determined by the distance the weapons got on the model. This is only a helping somewhat, since some weapons on some mechs are extremely close together, but it might be a start.

[Prezimonto]

And how about some more discussion of this excellent topic!

[DirePhoenix]

I don't think this the OP's suggestion is quite the right answer. I actually do think a WoT-style accuracy cone is better (with modifiers for movement, heat, and damage), although I don't think the cone needs to expand nearly as far as the weapons do in WoT. At maximum, the cone should be the radius of the current missile lock reticle.

For missiles, I think they need to raise the damage to 2 for LRMs, and 4 for SRMs, but increase the spread. For example, standard LRM volleys with LoS should be scattered within a radius of 5m. Standard LRM volleys w/o LoS (3rd party spotting) should expand the radius to 10m. LRMs w/o a lock should expand to 15m radius centered on the point where they last had a lock. SRMs should have a 5m radius spread. Yes, that means fewer missiles might hit, but when they do hit they have more of an impact.

Most of this conversation is about convergence and alpha striking of direct-fire weapons though. I don't think the "solution" is necessarily to scatter or spread weapon groups, because that negates the almost the entire point of having weapon groups to begin with. I think most of the problems lie in the design of these weapons, where they've only taken bits and pieces of TT values and left them unscaled with other changes that are inconsistent with TT values. It needs to be all or nothing, and if they choose "nothing", then this might as well be a completely non-BTech game anyway. I'm not saying that all weapons need to have a 10s cooldown/reload/refresh, but god forbid anyone here has to wait more than 3 seconds to fire a weapon again. If they're going to double armor values for more granularity, then a PPC needs to do 2 damage per second. Whether that's 20 damage per 10 seconds or 10 damage per 5 seconds, or 5 damage per 2.5 seconds.

And with that, I think that the best answer for high alphas is not convergence or additional heat, but actually refresh/reload time limits. In the lore, rarely do they ever talk about weapon groups, except as Alpha Strikes. And when they do have a character performing an Alpha Strike, it's always a last-ditch desperation maneuver or something they had to make a special firing circuit for (and thereby risking the weapons not functioning at all). How I would translate that into MWO: for every weapon in a group, add that weapon's refresh time to every other weapon in a group.

So, if someone fires a 4-PPC group shot, where PPCs currently have a 4 second refresh, then every PPC in that group now has a 16 second cooldown. If a HBK decides to fire a 9-MLaser Alpha Strike, each of those MLasers are now unavailable for 27 seconds. The larger the Alpha, the longer the weapons are offline. This keeps weapon grouping and even alpha strikes as an option, but adds a risk that you won't have those weapons back online when you want them.

[SmurfOff]

Actually, I cam up with a better idea today, and instead of tracking convergence, track "divergence". Basically use a simple green/yellow/red bar indicator to indicate within what range your fire will hit (green 1-3 M, yellow 3-6, red 7-9). Things that will affect it would include speeds, twist rate, actuators, etc...

[Homeless Bill]

Well, I think they just said no to mine. Hide your posts, hide your threads, because they moving everybody out here.

I still don't like your own movement affecting convergence, but this is still a fantastic idea. Its biggest drawback is not affecting chassis that boat in single component (732 with 3xPPC in RT). Though I agree having all your eggs in one basket is somewhat risky, the massive benefit of essentially avoiding your system makes it worth it.

I'd prefer something to make weapons in the same component spread damage just a bit when not converged. It sort of goes against the non-randomness you're trying to develop, but at the end of the day, I see chassis that can boat in a single location being the choice of cheese under this implementation.

[DocBach]

Suggestions forum = where good threads go to die

[Merit Lef]

I love the idea and cant wait for PGI to make the change. My only thought is would this make Lights particularly too hard to kill....like impossible. Now that damage would be spread across the mech (as it should be), would double armor with the added suggestions on lights make them to powerful? They're hard enough to hit and kill as it is. They don't always put out a lot of damage but it takes a team effort to take one down.

[Lord of All]

Merit Lef, on 11 July 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I love the idea and cant wait for PGI to make the change. My only thought is would this make Lights particularly too hard to kill....like impossible. Now that damage would be spread across the mech (as it should be), would double armor with the added suggestions on lights make them to powerful? They're hard enough to hit and kill as it is. They don't always put out a lot of damage but it takes a team effort to take one down.

What are you saying Med's will have a role?

[DocBach]

Merit Lef, on 11 July 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I love the idea and cant wait for PGI to make the change. My only thought is would this make Lights particularly too hard to kill....like impossible. Now that damage would be spread across the mech (as it should be), would double armor with the added suggestions on lights make them to powerful? They're hard enough to hit and kill as it is. They don't always put out a lot of damage but it takes a team effort to take one down.

Pretty much, since lights weapons are also spread out, they aren't going to be doing as much damage to single locations either, meaning while they'll be harder to kill, they'll also do less damage. One shot deaths decrease, and survivabilty increases for everybody.

[Warge]

Wht just don't remove convergence from torso mounted weapons at all?

[DocBach]

Warge, on 11 July 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Wht just don't remove convergence from torso mounted weapons at all?

I don't understand the question? Are you asking why not just remove torso convergence?

The idea is to not completely get rid of convergence, or make shots random, just make it harder to get full convergence.

[Warge]

DocBach, on 11 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

I don't understand the question? Are you asking why not just remove torso convergence?

Yep. In case alpha-strike parallel trajectories for all torso weapons.

DocBach, on 11 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

The idea is to not completely get rid of convergence, or make shots random, just make it harder to get full convergence.

Full convergence even in case "harder to get" just ruins game, imho.
Alpha strikes should hit multiply locations. When 12vs12 will come - it's should be "must have" option.

[ShivaPT]

Not gonna work.

6ERPPC stalker:

Chain fire;
Aim;
clickclickclickclickclickclick
6 shots in something like half a second, should all go to the same spot still. (granted, on moving targets at long range you might miss the CT with a couple, but jagerbooms would not be affected at all.