387 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Ain't it 30 seconds between shots in Chain Fire?

[DocBach]

ShivaPT, on 11 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Not gonna work.

6ERPPC stalker:

Chain fire;
Aim;
clickclickclickclickclickclick
6 shots in something like half a second, should all go to the same spot still. (granted, on moving targets at long range you might miss the CT with a couple, but jagerbooms would not be affected at all.

there's half a second between chain fired shots; if you evade and torso twist, you've now spread the damage out much better than six ppc's to the same location guaranteed. If chain firing was as effective as group fire now we'd see people chain firing PPC's rather than group firing, which we don't.

[Moogy]

I voted yes... but on the sol condition that lasers become point weapons like ppc and ballistics...

[DocBach]

Moogy, on 11 July 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

I voted yes... but on the sol condition that lasers become point weapons like ppc and ballistics...

I was thinking about a caveat saying that lasers still automatically converged as they are constant beams of light whereas projectiles have to have calculations to align all of their barrels/emitters to all hit the same spot, especially to make up for the fact that lasers are DOT rather than burst damage, but I couldn't figure out a way to make pulse lasers be unique, since they are suppose to have accuracy bonuses; the end result was pulse lasers would converge a couple seconds quicker, so they are almost instantly pinpoint accuracy to give them a niche.

[Ryankamun II]

Bit late to the party, but the OP made a great post.

[DocBach]

Thanks Ryan

[Otto Cannon]

I just wish we could get this thread pinned to refer people to when they make all the usual assumptions about 'random' shots 'missing the target'. This would have been a much better solution than the heat penalty... thing... that PGI have decided on. Especially if lasers still converged and target speed affected convergence significantly, which would also help to address weight class balance somewhat.

[egreSS]

I really hate to disagree with such a well written and thought out post but I am against this. Three things...

• Assumes problem is with alpha-strike
Boating is lame and I hold it and the people who use it to the same standard as CoD players running around with the noob tube. But this isn't anything new - People complaining about it act as if PGI created a game promoting some new noobish playstyle. All of them conveniently silent or just oblivious to the fact these builds have been a staple of every multiplayer MechWarrior to date.

Not sure about that crowd but I'm not having any trouble hitting an overheated, jumbo-jet fuselage with legs. However, I'll admit that avoiding and/or designating jaegar's rollin' on AC dubs as primary takes practice.

• Dev Blog 0 - This is a FPS. Not a RTT nor TT simulation
For a FPS I believe player skill is a product of reflex and accuracy. You should be very, very careful in what metrics you choose to affect it artificially. This game shows so much competitive potential that I believe something like having your accuracy modified based on target velocity is one of the most sensitive and execution-dependent things you can touch on in the genre, If it were to ever result in a complete miss as opposed to just partial damage that would be an example of it done wrong; IMAO.

• I think it fails to completely address your primary issue
As your closing statement says: "mitigate.. Mechs... cored completely... large, long range alpha strikes....." However, with your example, a player will have full convergence when standing stationary for awhile, albeit at risk to himself.

However...

Standing stationary has always been the province of long range high alpha snipers - But now, returning equally accurate fire toward a previously undetected sniper would take even longer - In effect compounding the initial purported problem.

[DocBach]

egreSS, on 13 July 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

I really hate to disagree with such a well written and thought out post but I am against this. Three things...

• Assumes problem is with alpha-strike
Boating is lame and I hold it and the people who use it to the same standard as CoD players running around with the noob tube. But this isn't anything new - People complaining about it act as if PGI created a game promoting some new noobish playstyle. All of them conveniently silent or just oblivious to the fact these builds have been a staple of every multiplayer MechWarrior to date.

Not sure about that crowd but I'm not having any trouble hitting an overheated, jumbo-jet fuselage with legs. However, I'll admit that avoiding and/or designating jaegar's rollin' on AC dubs as primary takes practice.

• Dev Blog 0 - This is a FPS. Not a RTT nor TT simulation
For a FPS I believe player skill is a product of reflex and accuracy. You should be very, very careful in what metrics you choose to affect it artificially. This game shows so much competitive potential that I believe something like having your accuracy modified based on target velocity is one of the most sensitive and execution-dependent things you can touch on in the genre, If it were to ever result in a complete miss as opposed to just partial damage that would be an example of it done wrong; IMAO.

• I think it fails to completely address your primary issue
As your closing statement says: "mitigate.. Mechs... cored completely... large, long range alpha strikes....." However, with your example, a player will have full convergence when standing stationary for awhile, albeit at risk to himself.

However...

Standing stationary has always been the province of long range high alpha snipers - But now, returning equally accurate fire toward a previously undetected sniper would take even longer - In effect compounding the initial purported problem.

Thanks for the time for your reply

I agree with the first point - boating and cheese 'Mechs aren't a new thing to the MechWarrior series; however, why should we have that the status quo? I quit playing MW4 online for the poptart boats. To me, the idea of a giant robot game was about robots who were able to take tons of damage slugging it out; the idea of being killed in one shot by a guy who jumped up for half a second wasn't very fun. The same translates to MWO; piloting a medium 'Mech is very difficult to do when someone can take an entire body part off me in a single hit.

Because this suggested convergence time pretty much requires a lock to fire all weapons into a small hole, poptarting and hill humping become very difficult to do, because the sniper has to expose himself for several seconds before firing his accurate shot. Because 'Mechs moving under a specific speed have much quicker convergence against them, return fire against snipers is actually quicker - returning fire against a stationary 'Mech is faster;

stationary - more pinpoint accuracy eventually
firing against stationary - much quicker accuracy against them

The idea is, if a player wants complete accuracy, they switch to chain fire mode; group fire becomes an option reserved for opportune moments, alpha strikes become a trick up someones sleeve, rather than the only attack people use.

Edited by DocBach, 13 July 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Prezimonto]

This is exactly what should be encouraged. Alpha striking is currently the best way for most mechs to deal useful damage to another mech. With out fail. It shouldn't be.

[MCXL]

I unliked the OP just so that I could like it again.

[Kibble]

just bumping this because it's a damn good idea.

[Ken Fury]

It's a terrible idea, just buff armor and internal health. And let player skill decide not random cone fire. No matter how you disguise it, that's it.

And you're actually punishing new players even more? I mean seriously do you want PGI do go brankrupt even faster? Seriously?

Also making the game even more static due to Mechs being stable firing plattforms while standing. Brilliant, also making short range weapons even worse, since 90m is really close... PPC Mechs will be even better with that idea.

Oh jebus, this is really peak brown sea.

EDIT
Also if you really suggest single fired weapons fire into the Center. Did you even think about what that would do? This will make using single BIG guns the best thing! So 2x Gauss or 2x Gauss and a PPC, all fired after each other will be the best with this "solution".

You are worse than Paul. Gratulations.

Squawk.

Edited by Tank Boy Ken, 13 July 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Allister Rathe]

Tank Boy Ken, on 13 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

It's a terrible idea, just buff armor and internal health. And let player skill decide not random cone fire. No matter how you disguise it, that's it.

And you're actually punishing new players even more? I mean seriously do you want PGI do go brankrupt even faster? Seriously?

Also making the game even more static due to Mechs being stable firing plattforms while standing. Brilliant, also making short range weapons even worse, since 90m is really close... PPC Mechs will be even better with that idea.

Oh jebus, this is really peak brown sea.

So your solution to people running massive pinpoint alpha builds is to make 'Mechs more durable? It would only exacerbate the problem that the Doc is trying to address. All that would do is further devalue balanced load outs. Any person who wasn't running a massive pinpoint alpha would still get shredded by those who do, albeit at a slower rate, while a balanced 'Mech is at a further disadvantage than they already are.

[Ken Fury]

Allister Rathe, on 13 July 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

So your solution to people running massive pinpoint alpha builds is to make 'Mechs more durable? It would only exacerbate the problem that the Doc is trying to address. All that would do is further devalue balanced load outs. Any person who wasn't running a massive pinpoint alpha would still get shredded by those who do, albeit at a slower rate, while a balanced 'Mech is at a further disadvantage than they already are.

You are wrong, back in November we had more effective HP. And then Brawlers were more effective due to being able to close in. Brawlers use SRMs and ACs. Thus being more balanced. This also made DPS builds better. Sorry you're just wrong.

And yes more hitpoints will move people away from high heat high alpha weapons. A balanced build like the stock Shadowhawk is bad in TT and is also bad in MWO. If you allow Mech customization in TT, people also ran boats because they are better.

That's the way of optimization. The Stock loadouts in BT 3025 were intentionally gimped to allow for more build variety. Learn more about Battletech instead of sticking to those rules without knowing why they are the way they are.

Also: Get Better!

[Tegiminis]

Allister Rathe, on 13 July 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

So your solution to people running massive pinpoint alpha builds is to make 'Mechs more durable? It would only exacerbate the problem that the Doc is trying to address. All that would do is further devalue balanced load outs. Any person who wasn't running a massive pinpoint alpha would still get shredded by those who do, albeit at a slower rate, while a balanced 'Mech is at a further disadvantage than they already are.

I don't think you understand.

Higher armor and health naturally favors consistent, sustained damage over high alphas. The only reason high alphas are around right now is because you can kill a mech in one shot, thus negating any real penalty for overheating. If you take more shots to kill him, the balance shifts to more heat-efficient builds, as they can dump damage regularly without shutting down. In a protracted engagement, 8 MLs is better than 4 PPCs by far.

[Erata]

Tank Boy Ken, on 13 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

It's a terrible idea, just buff armor and internal health. And let player skill decide not random cone fire. No matter how you disguise it, that's it.

And you're actually punishing new players even more? I mean seriously do you want PGI do go brankrupt even faster? Seriously?

Also making the game even more static due to Mechs being stable firing plattforms while standing. Brilliant, also making short range weapons even worse, since 90m is really close... PPC Mechs will be even better with that idea.

Oh jebus, this is really peak brown sea.

EDIT
Also if you really suggest single fired weapons fire into the Center. Did you even think about what that would do? This will make using single BIG guns the best thing! So 2x Gauss or 2x Gauss and a PPC, all fired after each other will be the best with this "solution".

You are worse than Paul. Gratulations.

Squawk.

DAMN!

[soarra]

Tank Boy Ken, on 13 July 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

You are wrong, back in November we had more effective HP. And then Brawlers were more effective due to being able to close in. Brawlers use SRMs and ACs. Thus being more balanced. This also made DPS builds better. Sorry you're just wrong.

And yes more hitpoints will move people away from high heat high alpha weapons. A balanced build like the stock Shadowhawk is bad in TT and is also bad in MWO. If you allow Mech customization in TT, people also ran boats because they are better.

That's the way of optimization. The Stock loadouts in BT 3025 were intentionally gimped to allow for more build variety. Learn more about Battletech instead of sticking to those rules without knowing why they are the way they are.

Also: Get Better!

first of all liking your own post negates anything you have to say.
You are wrong about more armor negating alpha builds, More armor and you will see even more alpha builds..

[Tegiminis]

soarra, on 13 July 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

first of all liking your own post negates anything you have to say.
You are wrong about more armor negating alpha builds, More armor and you will see even more alpha builds..

That's not true, though. Both historically and theoretically higher TTK favors better heat efficiency. So where's your logic in that it favors high alphas?

[DocBach]

Tank Boy Ken, on 13 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Also making the game even more static due to Mechs being stable firing plattforms while standing. Brilliant, also making short range weapons even worse, since 90m is really close... PPC Mechs will be even better with that idea.


Also if you really suggest single fired weapons fire into the Center. Did you even think about what that would do? This will make using single BIG guns the best thing! So 2x Gauss or 2x Gauss and a PPC, all fired after each other will be the best with this "solution".

You are worse than Paul. Gratulations.

Squawk.

Glad to see the Goons providing well thought out and delivered criticism. Thank you for taking your time to grace your presence in this thread.

Medium lasers convergence speed would be quicker up close, especially within 90m. I don't see, however, how that would put them at any more of a disadvantage against PPC's as they currently are, since they aren't widely known for their countersniping ability right now, either. In fact, up close, they would receive a bonus against PPC's as weapons with minimum ranges would be penalized with lowered convergence speed when firing inside those ranges.

Being static means grouped fire converges much quicker than you can converge upon a moving 'Mech; it's an option, but only if you accept having accurate fire placed against you while you wait for your perfect shot, which could be quite a while based on conditions such as heat, ect.

If big guns are used to single fire at the center torso, then the problem I'm trying to solve is in fact mitigated. Single AC/20's or even chain fired PPC's aren't as large as a problem as say, one strike being able to kill half the 'Mechs in the game like we will have when Clan tech is introduced. The intended idea is to reward players with accuracy for single fired weapons, or they can take time to get perfect convergence on a target, which exposes them to enemy fire; without target data, the sniper will not have convergence; he has to have a target locked, and tracked for whatever period of time the modifiers he is penalized with to gain complete convergence locks. Sniping by firing all of his weapons at once instantly would not be possible. He could fire individual weapons accurately at long range, which again would solve the problem of one hit kills.

Edited by DocBach, 13 July 2013 - 04:01 PM.