387 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

The moderators have been through the thread cleaning it up several times now, there's quite a few personal attack posts missing or edited now.

[Teh Won]

WarZ, on 26 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

How about each weapon also has a "power requirement". Say you have 100 power every second to spend. A PPC for example would spend 50 power. So you could only fire 2 PPC's in any one second. The rest would have to be cycled through. This would add a different layer of weapon control and doesnt even have to affect the current system.

I like this as a concept.
I hate it in practice.

The more variables you add to a system, the more difficult it is to tune. This variable would nerf PPC, and also lasers (which don't need a nerf). It also buffs ballistics, which would need a corresponding nerf (currently reload time only variable available).

If you add this and lower reload time of ballistics, the game would slow to a crawl.

[Tombstoner]

Teh Won, on 15 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

I like this as a concept.
I hate it in practice.

The more variables you add to a system, the more difficult it is to tune. This variable would nerf PPC, and also lasers (which don't need a nerf). It also buffs ballistics, which would need a corresponding nerf (currently reload time only variable available).

If you add this and lower reload time of ballistics, the game would slow to a crawl.

This is true when the number of factors starts getting beyond 5-6 or so this is based on professional experience in formulation optimization.

MWO has weapon , mass, heat, damage, range , critical slots, cycle time. ideally weapons balance would be initially obtained via cost functions. so you could trade more heat for more damage at a fix ratio same for all stats. then build all the game weapons based on that profile then you can scale things based on point cost for each weapon and see if they are balanced on paper.

i tried to do this with some analysis software capable of multi factor models( JMP ). i couldn't get good functions because the game fundamentally uses .5 tone units. nothing fit. so i expect tha PGI is recording a bunch of meta data and just winging it looking for things that are out of the ordinary.

The game needs one more factor that exists in many many other FPS, nothing but an accuracy coefficient will alter the high damage alpha. heat penalties will be soaked for damage, macroed or cool shotted away.

Edited by Tombstoner, 15 July 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

With the heatnerfs incoming tomorrow we'll see if the game gets 'fixed' or still needs this. I'm guessing nothing will be solved properly until they sort the technical issues preventing a working convergence mechanic.

*Totally not just a thread bump, honest.*

[Undead Bane]

Erata, on 14 July 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

They're waiting 3 to 4 weeks for the metrics to get back to them so that they can make a decision! These things, they take time. Just be patient.

Excuse me, but metrics of WAT?!

They now have s--tload of metrics - the game is basically a sniper fest in every game with above average players. They were warned by numerous would-be-pro-if-the-game-succeeds players about the potential problems with convergence, heat (dissipation and threshold), damage, hundreds of stuff.
This particular post is about convergence - and not a single response was given. Actually, the last response on the issue I can recall was the one I saw in similar thread back in Oct-Nov 2012 stating, that the game will always be point-and-click "as it works fine".
The fact that it does not is obvious now even to forum trolls. But not the devs, because they (assuming they are not lying in their own threads) look only at "average players" metrics, instead of looking at top-tier metrics sometimes. So, really, just MOAR metrics?..

Edited by Undead Bane, 15 July 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[Erata]

Undead Bane, on 15 July 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Excuse me, but metrics of WAT?!

Just joking. There's nothing much to do but laugh at this point in the game's lifespan and hope that it emerges, several patches from now, as something a lot better than being so close to MW4's form of gameplay.

[DocBach]

removed maximum convergence based off of firing 'Mechs movement speed - all 'Mechs can have pinpoint precision if they gain a convergence lock by holding the reticle on target long enough. Moving speed does not affect convergence but target movement speed does, meaning movement helps defend against group fire, but being stationary makes you an easier target of it.

Edited by DocBach, 16 July 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[Syllogy]

DocBach, on 16 July 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

meaning movement helps defend against group fire, but being stationary makes you an easier target of it.

This already happens. Leading the target prevents convergence. Unless you are talking only about Hitscan weapons (lasers), this makes no sense.

Edited by Syllogy, 16 July 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Erata, on 15 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Just joking. There's nothing much to do but laugh at this point in the game's lifespan and hope that it emerges, several patches from now, as something a lot better than being so close to MW4's form of gameplay.

The Irony is that MG's, Flamers, LB-X, and NARC were miles better in MW4 than MWO lol, and did not have any ECM balance woes. Also UrbanMech.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 July 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[DocBach]

Perhaps you missed the original thread?

convergence can be obtained much like a missile lock, the speed in which convergence is obtained is based off of conditions like the target's movement; obtaining a lock against a stationary or very slowly moving 'Mech increases the rate in which your weapons converge, if the target is moving faster you have to hold the reticle over them longer to gain pinpoint convergence.

[DocBach]

Couple of new images to explain some things better.

[Gambino87]

+1 To OP's argument!

[Mowmentous]

+1!
this is far far better than the 'solution' in place atm.

[soarra]

so now that we have seen that the great heat penalty has solved nothing like we all said, how about we look into this option please PGI

[ManDaisy]

I love this idea, why don't the devs those this instead of wasting time on 3rd person?

[Foust]

I like this idea, however I voted other. I have also slogged through the 18 pages (at the time I started this post).

I like the reactive idea, however I think that it is to ambitious of a system to implement at this stage of the game. What if instead of the reactive reticle there were two additional static aim points assigned to the left and right torso locations. There would be no convergence between torso locations, however each torso would hit exactly where its corresponding aim point indicates. I also propose the removal of arm lock from the game.

I am aware that there are several chassis that can mount multiples of the same weapon in the same torso or arm locations, and that this suggestion would not really affect them. This suggestion is to be a part of multiple changes to address high damage, all-range alphas. (The all-range thing I will get to)

By separating the torso reticles and removing arm lock, we introduce additional considerations for the pilot. Weapon groupings per location need to be considered along with heat thresholds. At longer ranges heavy torso weapons might be able to hit a enemy mech, but they wont fall on the same panel unless aimed and fired independently.

I believe it is accepted that the PPC, Gauss and AC/20 are the popular problem children in the context of high damage alphas. As an additional change, add a hard minimum range to PPC, ER PPC and Gauss. Also add a hard Maximum range to the AC/20.

My reasoning is this. The ER PPC and Gauss are just as effective at 660m as they are at 1m. The reason short range alpha builds are not as viable as the long range alpha builds, is because the long range builds are just as good at short range alphas but without the range limitations. If you introduce the weakness of minimum range into those long range builds, there is a burden of choice on the pilot to over specialize. The opposite applies for the AC/20, for the same reason.

Again I want to say that Doc's post is a quality idea, and deserves developer consideration. This idea of multiple torso reticles is simply to be a simpler to implement version of Doc's excellent idea. I apologize in advance for being weapon tweaks into a convergence discussion, however I think the problem is multi-faceted and needs addressed as such.

[DocBach]

Foust, on 17 July 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

I believe it is accepted that the PPC, Gauss and AC/20 are the popular problem children in the context of high damage alphas. As an additional change, add a hard minimum range to PPC, ER PPC and Gauss. Also add a hard Maximum range to the AC/20.


Again I want to say that Doc's post is a quality idea, and deserves developer consideration. This idea of multiple torso reticles is simply to be a simpler to implement version of Doc's excellent idea. I apologize in advance for being weapon tweaks into a convergence discussion, however I think the problem is multi-faceted and needs addressed as such.

I think the AC/20 should have much shorter effective range too, primarily to give the AC/10 back its role of being the medium/long range heavy autocannon.

I am however opposed to just fixed torso convergence, I like the idea of allowing players the ability to know exactly where their weapons are converged and to give them the ability to do a heavy alpha strike if they work for it by keeping a target in their sights long enough and sacrificing their own defense to do so.

[Teralitha]

DocBach, on 25 June 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Overview:

The largest problem in this game stems from the fact that PGI has kept certain traits and rules from the board game such as the separate location damage models, then added the ability to group several weapons together and shoot them all at one location. These damage models were balanced for a board game in which weapons hit completely random locations; now that where they go can easily be selected we have created an environment that rewards boating the biggest alpha strike as possible as they are superior in nearly every way to other weapon systems.

To fix it PGI needs to make a decision; is this going to be a simulation of the board game, or a first person shooter skinned with the lore?

If the former, they need to relook how they allow alpha strikes to work. If you fire a single weapon you should have accuracy. If you want to fire off all your guns at once, don't expect the bullets to all fly through the same little hole without some work.

Homeless Bill's system was a good idea, but it was incredibly complicated and over complex when the system has been in the book already the whole time; El Bandito referenced the novels for the feel and I think that a combination of the actual rules and the fluff material would make the convergence issue much better. It would require changing the reticule's behavior somewhat depending on combat conditions.

A New Reticle For Group Fired Weapons:

The original reticle would be retained for the purposes of providing the player an aiming reference point for single fired weapons. An additional expanding and contracting reticle would be added around the existing reticle to serve as a group firing reticle. Instead of having the center of the reticule be the point of convergence for grouped weapons, each location of the 'Mech will have its own focus point to where weapons fired from that location would be converged to:






(thank you Unbound Inferno for creating the original reticle graphic)

The player would still have a reference on where his shot would go, because the various stadia line on the reticle would remain the same.

A Reactive Reticle That Adjusts to Combat Conditions:


To achieve a group to pinpoint precision, the firing 'Mech would have to target a 'Mech and then hold its reticle over the 'Mech for a time determined by combat factors such as heat, target movement speed, and range; if the target 'Mech breaks line of sight and the target information is lost, or the reticle is removed from the vicinity of the target, convergence begins to deconverge, much like missile locks currently do.

Pulse lasers would have tighter convergence than ballistic weapons and would not be as affected by range as they were by lore suppose to be more accurate than other weapon systems; this accuracy bonus would help differentiate them from other weapons and give them a slight advantage as lasers are a high skill weapon, but have the potential to spread their damage as they are damage over time.

C3 could be added as equipment, as its function in the board game was to allow 'Mechs on a network to use other 'Mechs in the network's targeting data to reduce the penalty of firing at longer ranges; this could be added to this system as well, so having a spotter at close range with C3 could allow a 'Mech at longer ranges to gain tighter convergence. This would allow snipers to still be accurate, if a team mate acts as a spotter, making coordination and team play more of a factor for long range direct fire support, much like LRM fire requires a spotter currently. C3's functionality would be negated by ECM.

To represent the Clan targeting computer's ability to fire at single locations, the targeting computer would reduce the convergence cone to a point similar to the convergence we have currently. However, time penalties for the target's movement speed and the player's heat level would still apply.

This system would require the player to obtain a lock on the enemy by hitting R. Convergence for group fire would not occur until the player selects a target and holds the reticle over the enemy; the reticle would visibly constrict over the target, giving the player clear reference where the various locations weapons would hit if fired at the target. This would require a work around for how ECM currently works; perhaps ECM protected 'Mechs would still be non-targetable by the R key, but if the open a player could manually target them by placing their reticule over an enemy in visual line of sight.

Factors Affecting The Speed of Convergence:

The rate in which the lock constricts would be governed by several things:

- Player's Heat Level - the hotter the 'Mech is, the slower convergence would be applied, giving a real downside to running hot.

- Target 'Mechs movement speed: the faster the enemy is moving, the harder it is to hit. This speed is based on the actual movement speed of the 'Mech, not the rate of the throttle so a 'Mech moving 54kph would be easier to converge your weapons on than a 'Mech moving 90 kph. A 'Mech running 120+ would take a bit of tracking with the reticle to gain pinpoint convergence. This would help the survivability of faster 'Mechs, especially medium 'Mechs who are especially vulnerable in the current meta

- Pilot Tree Skills - give Pinpoint something to do, dammit

- Damage to Actuators - critical hits to actuators in the arm would slow convergence

- Pulse lasers - to represent the accuracy bonus pulse lasers have in the source material, pulse lasers would enjoy a quicker convergence speed than other weapon systems.


Modifiers to Convergence Speed:

The base modifier for convergence speed is based on the level of experience tier;


Basic Qualified 'Mechs have a 4 second to maximum convergence base time
Elite Qualified (Pinpoint Skill) have a 3 second to maximum convergence base time
Master Qualified have a 2 second to maximum convergence base modifier


Long Range adds 4 to the modifier
Medium Range adds 2 to the modifier
Minimum Range adds 1 to the modifier for each 30 meters of minimum range, ie a weapon with a minimum range of 90 would have a 2 modifier or being 30-60m

Firing at a 'Mech that is stationary to 10kph subtracts 4 from the modifier
'Mechs moving 10-20kph have no modifier
'Mechs moving 20-50kph have a +1 modifier
'Mechs moving 50-70kph have a +2 modifier
'Mechs moving 70-90kph have a +3 modifier
'Mechs moving 90-120kph have a +4 modifier
'Mechs moving > 120kph have a +5 modifier

Heat Level at 20% adds a 1 modifier
Heat Level at 40% adds a 2 modifier
Heat Level at 60% adds a 3 modifier
Heat Level at 80% adds a 4 modifier

Pulse Lasers Subtract 2 from the modifier
C3 would allows a spotter to remove the range modifier, 'Mechs in the C3 network would use the range modifier for the 'Mech in the closest range of the target.

Clan Targeting Computers would negate the movement penalty; a running 'Mech would have the same maximum convergence of a walking 'Mech, and a walking 'Mech would have the same maximum convergence as a stationary 'Mech. A stationary 'Mech receives a -2 modifier to convergence time.

The time to gain maximum convergence is this formula

Base Skill Time + Modifier/3= amount of seconds required to gain complete convergence

So an Elite Tier Stalker that is stationary at long range decides to try to use group fire to attack a Centurion 9D moving 108kph at 30% heat. To gain maximum convergence it would take

3 seconds Elite base time to maximum convergence + 4 for long range + 3 for target movement speed + 1 for heat/3 = 5.6 seconds to gain maximum convergence.

The Centurion is also elite and moving at full throttle so its maximum convergence is not pinpoint; he is returning fire at the stationary Stalker.

3 + 4 for range - 4 for firing on a stationary target = 3 seconds to absolute convergence. Because he is moving faster than the stationary 'Mech, his weapons converge on the stationary 'Mech much sooner than the stationary 'Mech can converge upon him.

This means that firing a group of weapons against a 'moving 'Mech takes much longer to converge weapons to pinpoint precision like we have now; an alternative would be to firing in chain fire mode if accuracy at long range is desired, without necessitating the firing 'Mech expose themselves for long periods of time.



What It Could Look Like:



This picture is a mock up of what the convergence would look like - he is moving and though he is at close range for his weapons, his high heat level slowed the convergence spreed of his groups down but he chose to fire a group of weapons anyways - see how the damage would be spread over the enemy 'Mech? Nearly every other shooter has similar systems of expanding reticules to display inaccuracy caused by running, ect so new players familiar with shooter games should have no problem adapting to it, especially as it is not a randomized cone; the reticule has the points of aim for the locations with the stadia lines of the crosshairs.

Group fired snap shots or shots fired at non-targeted enemies would be fired at an accuracy penalty as the targeting computer did not have time to converge properly. However the reticle would still provide the pilot with an idea where his shots will go, and since shooting errors are angular in nature the effective of shooting a group with the larger, unconverged reticle at short ranges would be much less severe then attempting to shoot at an unconverged target far away, and the player always has an option for single fired weapons, which are not affected by convergence and have a separate, constant aiming point.



In this picture we see where left/right torso point of impacts will be, even if the reticle converges fully. Even with full convergence achieved, there is some deviation between the points of impacts of weapons in opposite torso locations.

The new system would force the player to have to choose - if he wants precision when firing a group of weapons he either has to offer himself up as a stationary target which would allow the enemy's computer quicker convergence on him, or fire a single weapon rather than a large alpha strike. If he wants to put out brutal force, he can fire a group, but the damage would be spread over the 'Mech.

This new system would not be a random cone of fire; the player has very distinct points of aim at all times for his weapon systems, and is in control of managing his speed and heat to achieve maximum potential for firing weapon groups, but in general should mitigate the trends we have been seeing where 'Mechs are being cored completely to the center torso by large, long range alpha strikes -- sometimes in a single volley.

TL;DR

Add a reticle for grouped weapons fire that converges like a missile lock; the the different stadia (crosshair) lines on the reticle would be the points of convergence for different locations. The speed on which the reticle converges is based on combat conditions such as heat level or target speed. Chain fire would be unaffected, group fire before convergence lock is gained still does damage to a target, just not concentrated to a single location. Pinpoint convergence is still possible if you hold your sights on a target long enough and don't break the lock either by moving your crosshairs off the target (ie torso twisting, engaging a new target, the target breaking line of sight, ect).

You didnt think this through very well did you. Convervence only makes it harder for faster moving mechs to aim. Or even harder to hit.

NO. This idea wont work. We dont even need any convergence. yet another poster who is only looking on the surface for answers to a problem that lies in the core mechanics.


At this point I dont think PGI even cares if an idea is good, if a bunch of ppl ignorantly like a suggestion like this one, they may put it in, making the game even worse. Like I said before.... this game is in a death spiral.... and ideas like this if implemented will only kill the game even faster. PGI is in panic mode now, and will implement whatever idea seems to be popular to stay in business. Which is the worst thing for the game....

What PGI doesnt realize, and maybe never will, is that its the hard and unpopular decisions that sometimes are the best ones regardless of the what the mindless barbarian hordes cry for.

Things like.... removing double heat sinks. Slower recycle rates.... re-adding knockdowns..... total rewrite of LRM mechanics....


Farewell mechwarrior.... its a was a nice dream.... but only a dream.

Edited by Teralitha, 17 July 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

Early B Tech novels had the "golden lock". When the target computer finally crunched all the numbers and had all the weapons set to converge on the targeted enemy the lock turned gold color. We need some sort of system where the convergance takes time to get tight.

Edited by SuomiWarder, 17 July 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[DocBach]

Teralitha, on 17 July 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

You didnt think this through very well did you. Convervence only makes it harder for faster moving mechs to aim. Or even harder to hit.

NO. This idea wont work. We dont even need any convergence. yet another poster who is only looking on the surface for answers to a problem that lies in the core mechanics.


At this point I dont think PGI even cares if an idea is good, if a bunch of ppl ignorantly like a suggestion like this one, they may put it in, making the game even worse. Like I said before.... this game is in a death spiral.... and ideas like this if implemented will only kill the game even faster. PGI is in panic mode now, and will implement whatever idea seems to be popular to stay in business. Which is the worst thing for the game....

What PGI doesnt realize, and maybe never will, is that its the hard and unpopular decisions that sometimes are the best ones regardless of the what the mindless barbarian hordes cry for.

Things like.... removing double heat sinks. Slower recycle rates.... re-adding knockdowns..... total rewrite of LRM mechanics....


Farewell mechwarrior.... its a was a nice dream.... but only a dream.

The idea is to make single fire, thus spreading damage, the preferred method of attacks until the right moment where you get a good firing solution for firing a group shot -- for all 'Mechs; the speed of convergence is faster against slower 'Mechs, and longer against light 'Mechs, so concentrated damage would be limited both ways. However the suggested reticle does include an aiming point for your weapons even if the convergence isn't completely obtained, so you can still inflict damage, just not to a single location. You can also fire groups of weapons in the same location at the same aiming points so.