387 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

wolf74, on 25 June 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

• Pulse Laser (Does not stack with Targeting Computers) get a +-25m auto-Correction

you just inspired me with this, I forgot about the -2 to hit modifier pulse lasers get for accuracy; since there is currently no way to give them some sort of edge, a quicker convergence or tighter convergence to pulse weapons would be a great way to make them more useful than current, and an advantage to differentiate them from other weapons.

Edited by DocBach, 25 June 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[DocBach]

poll added

[Foxfire]

I like this idea.

At the very least I'd like to see slower convergence to eliminate snap shots and a base divergence based on the number of weapons you fire at a time. EG One weapon is on target but the more weapons you have, the larger the spread(nothing significant unless you are at longer ranges, with 4+ weapons giving mid range spread to eliminate pinpoint accuracy).

This concept of melding live action aim based gameplay with TT rules has always been a problem with this game but it wasn't always as bad as this.

[DocBach]

well Russ was on NGNG podcast about 20 minutes saying they were aware of issues of boating and they aren't really sure how they're going to deal with it - said he wasn't quite convinced with Paul's heat idea but Paul's on vacation so he hasn't gone over it with him. Who knows, maybe they'll do something with convergence.

Edited by DocBach, 26 June 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[skullman86]

DocBach, on 26 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

...Paul's on vacation so he hasn't gone over it with him...

Explains why we haven't had any updates about this issue. It also makes me a little less worried about it too because I thought they went straight to work on Paul's idea and were just going to drop it on us one day.

Edited by skullman86, 26 June 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Dude42]

DocBach, on 26 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

well Russ was on NGNG podcast about 20 minutes saying they were aware of issues of boating and they aren't really sure how they're going to deal with it - said he wasn't quite convinced with Paul's heat idea but Paul's on vacation so he hasn't gone over it with him. Who knows, maybe they'll do something with convergence.

Paul's heat idea is bad. Just plain outright bad. Just throwing that out there. I've heard a lot of bad ideas, but that one is particularly bad. Lower heat caps, and stiffer heat penalties are fine, but "magic heat" is just.... well... silly.

I'm of the opinion that if they focus on fixing pinpoint alpha striking, that boating becomes a non issue for the most part. Although I fully support lower heat caps, and real penalties for running hot.

[Taemien]

This nerfs light mechs in ways that would make them useless for carrying weapons. Already lights have to make use of multiple light weapons to be able to put up any sort of threat. A Jenner with 4 medium lasers would be forced to chain fire or weapon group their weapons in 2 groups. This is a mech that needs high alpha (compared to its weight) to even survive. Spider and to a lesser extent the Cicada are the same way as well as the future Flea and Locust.

The issue at hand like someone said, is the speed of which mechs go down. You all can cry till you're blue in the face about PPC stalkers, but in reality thats a gimped config. Making it so it can't mount PPCs won't fix the real problem. The real problem is the DPS of long range weapons.

Hit the PPC, ER PPC, and Gauss Rifle with a cooldown increase. Make them 8 or 10 seconds. Leave shorter range weapons alone and you'll see the game slow down a tad. It won't stop focus firing, but it will extend the matches a bit more. This is sort of how MWLL balanced long and short range weapons. Their PPCs could be used for full damage inside 90m, but someone with 2x SRM6 was going to wipe the floor with you up close.

[DocBach]

Dealing with heat and heat alone doesn't address the issue of boated ballistics, which we'll see with increased potency when the Clans come - 3-4 Gauss rifle builds will become possible and won't be affected at all. As for it being a nerf to lights, they would gain a defensive edge against being one shoted, and it affects all mechs the same offensively; the atlas' medium lasers would be spread out more than a jenners. Certain mechs would receive a benefit for carrying a payload in the same location but damage is still able to be directed to critical locations with some finesse and mastery of the system.

Edited by DocBach, 26 June 2013 - 05:18 PM.

[Kartr]

I largely agree with Doc and think he's got some genius ideas, especially with C3 since I can't figure out how its going to work under the current system. However I voted "Other" and here's why.

Doc was right about the hit boxes being designed the way they are because of table top and that those boxes were designed with random dice in mind. With the ability to pinpoint your strikes the system breaks down, but its more than just convergence its also rate of fire. The tabletop was also designed for 10s rounds with every weapon only firing once in that round. All three mechanisms need to be considered if even one is implemented.

Right now the game is hardly a "thinking persons shooter" but a "follow the mob and alpha" game. This is largely because of how quickly 'Mechs die thanks to the ability to tightly converge fire on single areas and hammer them rapidly. You wind up with just another shooter with slightly more interesting weapon and avatar options.

PGI knows there's an issue which is why they made lasers a "channel" type weapon to help spread the pinpoint damage around. However Doc has largely described a much better solution: the "RNG" circle. Each weapon should have its own circle internally, that are aggregated into your overall circular reticle. Weapons located close to each other can overlap, as pilots grow more experienced they can tighten certain weapon types circles and as they grow more experienced on a 'Mech tighten the circle for the all the weapons. C3 networks can tighten the circles as well. This spreads the damage out and makes the fights last longer and makes them more grueling and interesting rather than "alpha alpha POP!"

Putting the the RNG would heavily nerf lasers in their current incarnation so their duration needs to be shortened to just this side of instantaneous. Then in order to bring the last element in slow the recycle times down to 10s for everything to finally bring the speed of the game down to where thinking is important, this would also help with the heat issues since heat is dissipated over a 10s period. Now before people start crucifying me for wanting to make weapons recycle times so "absurdly slow" keep in mind two things. First in World of Tanks the higher tier tanks have a reload time of anywhere from 8s to 30s and those battles are far more intense, tactical and thought out than anything in MWO. Second it takes time to think which means if the cycle rates are to fast then thinking goes away and everything becomes reflex/twitch. So if this is to be a "thinking persons shooter" then combat needs to be slowed down so people are thinking not twitching.

Finally for those who are complaining that these changes would make lights popcans that go down instantly when hit by assaults, and assaults would be insanely tough and hard to kill... You're absolutely right it would, and it should. Lights aren't supposed to be taking down assaults and heavies, only other lights and sometimes mediums. A light is supposed to find the enemy 'Mechs so that the combatants know where to go and missile carriers can start hitting people. Right now lights are extremely OP with enough firepower to quickly take down heavies while circling behind where they can't get hit.

To sum my post up:
1. Combat is way to fast and is mostly twitch gaming with little thinking. PGI knows there's a problem with speed which is why lasers do their damage over time and armor was doubled. Sadly its not enough and probably isn't the right approach.

2. Hit locations were imported from Table Top but not the other mechanisms for calculating damage which is leading to the problem mentioned in 1.

3. RNG sights similar to Mass Effect 1 and World of Tanks should be the method of aiming, because this simulates the Table Top dice rolling while allowing pilot skill to matter. This would spread the damage across enemy 'Mechs eliminating the pinpoint alpha strikes, which in turn would slow the combat down from its current twitch style and help encourage thinking. This also helps with weapons balance.

4. Weapons should all be set to cycle at 10s in order to again help slow down combat so that MWO can actually be a thinking persons game and allow fights to be longer and more intense. These times aren't unprecedented or unreasonable, World of Tanks has reload times that range from nearly 10s all the way to 30+. This also helps with the weapon balance.

5. As pilots get more experience they can decrease the aiming circle of various weapon types and as they get more experienced with a 'Mech decrease the circle for that 'Mech. C3 would also reduce the circle as a practical way to introduce it into the game in a meaningful way.

6. Wasn't in my post but while talking about C3. ECM needs to be implemented in a way that mirrors TT. It doesn't make friendly 'Mechs invisible it merely disrupts C3, BAP, Artemis and NARC.

[DocBach]

The idea for players to increase convergence speed through more skills would be awesone . I wish there was more character customizatiin than just modules and much mastering, like base skills unlocked with Gxp that are universal no matter which much you pilot.

[Alix Stone]

I really like this idea, but there should be more penalty to an alpha strike or even mass groupings of weapons. I think that heat generation is also an answer as well. Very simple idea - if you fire more than one weapon from the same location in the body of a mech, extra heat is generated at a percent variable determined by its proximity to the engine and how much energy is being used by the engine. This with your idea would discourage "alpha builds" due to the threat of shutdown and you would see a lot more balanced mechs. (I find it interesting that all my uses of the word "mech" have been underlined red as misspelled in a forum for MechWarrior).

[DocBach]

The thing about heat generation penalties is they won't curb the gausszilla builds that can be built when the clans come. I can easily fit three gauss and two er ppcs on a clan 100 tonner in solaris skunwerks which would skirt heat penalties and put out a 75 alpha

[Taemien]

Kartr, on 26 June 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Finally for those who are complaining that these changes would make lights popcans that go down instantly when hit by assaults, and assaults would be insanely tough and hard to kill... You're absolutely right it would, and it should. Lights aren't supposed to be taking down assaults and heavies, only other lights and sometimes mediums. A light is supposed to find the enemy 'Mechs so that the combatants know where to go and missile carriers can start hitting people. Right now lights are extremely OP with enough firepower to quickly take down heavies while circling behind where they can't get hit.

Read the Warrior Trilogy. Lights can and do take on larger mechs in the lore. This idea that bigger always wins is not in BattleTech or MechWarrior. Sorry it just isn't. And PGI agrees with that fact so its redundant and moot to even bring it up. Best to wait till the next company picks up the franchise before making that argument.

[Kartr]

Taemien, on 26 June 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Read the Warrior Trilogy. Lights can and do take on larger mechs in the lore. This idea that bigger always wins is not in BattleTech or MechWarrior. Sorry it just isn't. And PGI agrees with that fact so its redundant and moot to even bring it up. Best to wait till the next company picks up the franchise before making that argument.

Have read it and lights are taking on other lights and mediums. When a single Assault 'Mech stomps on scene the battle pretty much stops and everyone is in awe and the battle goes from being pretty much won to badly in doubt. Right now I walk into a group of lights with an assault and they just laugh, run around behind me and pinpoint alpha me to death in a few shots.

They can take on heavy and assault 'Mechs but they need huge numbers advantages, plus terrain and it takes all day.

[WarZ]

Quite simply put the suggestion will suck.

The devs need to balance thier weapons and build options without breaking this fundamental mechanic of the game. We already have 2 reticles. Making the system any more complicated than it is now would be f'ing annoying to say the least.

You have to come to the understanding that this is NOT table top. Its a video game. In real time.

What we have now works great overall (minus the hit detection errors).

There are other suggestions for dealing with mulitple weapon systems.

I even have one:
How about each weapon also has a "power requirement". Say you have 100 power every second to spend. A PPC for example would spend 50 power. So you could only fire 2 PPC's in any one second. The rest would have to be cycled through. This would add a different layer of weapon control and doesnt even have to affect the current system.

But making the reticles more complicated ? Thats starting to sound like WoT and the "random hit circle". Which is the epitomy of annoying.

[DocBach]

Its completely not random however, as the reticle would always be the constant point of aim for the different location. It would limit damage to singular locations which even the devs have said is a concern of theirs; the current high alpha meta has reduced survivability to a level in which they think is too much. A system that let's players see their exact convergence and take steps to mitigate it like manage heat would fix both high damage alphas and high heat boats, and let the players have complete control without adding brand new systems or randomness.

[TehSBGX]

If I remember right, Borderlands did something similar to what the OP is suggesting and that game is pretty good.

[Brilig]

Did I read that right? Does the targets speed affect convergence?

If thats the case anything bigger than a light will have a slower convergence on a light because the light is moving so quick. While the lights will have a faster convergence on bigger mechs because the larger mechs are moving slower.

If thats the case then that is an awesome way to keep lights on a more even footing with heavier mechs.

[Kartr]

WarZ, on 26 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Quite simply put the suggestion will suck.

Why? Because you won't be able to pin point Alpha enemy 'Mechs to death in a couple of shots?

WarZ, on 26 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

The devs need to balance thier weapons and build options without breaking this fundamental mechanic of the game. We already have 2 reticles. Making the system any more complicated than it is now would be f'ing annoying to say the least.

We have problems right now because the mechanics are broken! The simple fact is that 'Mech combat is supposed to be slower and more grueling, kind of like boxing with shots traded over and over again until one combatant is simply so worn down they stop fighting. Currently we have a system that is the complete opposite of that, and one that punishes any sort of play other than "stay with the group and focus Alpha's."

WarZ, on 26 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

You have to come to the understanding that this is NOT table top. Its a video game. In real time.

We understand this, actually we understand the problem and the solutions better than you it seems.

WarZ, on 26 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

What we have now works great overall (minus the hit detection errors).

No, no it doesn't not even a little. Because right now we have Hawken or Call of Duty+WoW rather than BattleTech.

WarZ, on 26 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

I even have one:
How about each weapon also has a "power requirement". Say you have 100 power every second to spend. A PPC for example would spend 50 power. So you could only fire 2 PPC's in any one second. The rest would have to be cycled through. This would add a different layer of weapon control and doesnt even have to affect the current system.

Huh? Why? There's nothing like this anywhere in BattleTech or the previous 'MechWarrior games. Not to mention IT ALREADY EXISTS!! What do you the heat scale is? And its not working.

WarZ, on 26 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

But making the reticles more complicated ? Thats starting to sound like WoT and the "random hit circle". Which is the epitomy of annoying.

How is it annoying? In real life bullets don't go exactly where you aim, wind affects them, your movement affects them, recoil from previous shots affect them, breathing affects them, how quickly you move after your shot affects them. Most non-bullet weapons are still affected by most of those things because of the effects on your aim. Plus on top of that weapons don't converge at multiple distances because they are in fixed housings. The only exception would be arms can aim at the same spot but if there are more than a single weapon mounted in the entire torso and one in each arm you still wouldn't get perfect convergence because all the weapons in the torso would be firing along parallel paths as would the weapons in each arm.

Simply put the "annoying" circle is actually a better representation of real life than the "I point I shoot I hit" method MWO (and CoD) uses. Plus it solves a lot of the current problems and as an added bonus mimics the Table Top.

[DocBach]

Yes, that is a premise, would also help faster larger mediums like a centurion going 100kph.