165 replies to this topic

[Ralgas]

PEEFsmash, on 27 June 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

I never said that. I have said something very different many, many, many times including multiple itmes in this thread. Maybe if I make it bigger you will remember.

Playing at a high-level is not sufficient for your personal experience testimony and the information they take from it being true or right, but it is a necessary condition. You MUST play at a high level and against high level opponents in order for your in-game experience to be balance relevant. This does NOT mean that being high-level makes you right. You can be a high-level player, play against other top level players, but make stupid arguments or bad inferences based on experience. However, being a high level player is a MINIMUM requirement for relevance. No matter how clearly the low-level player points out how he can't hit lights or he can't deal with AC20s, etc, his experience is predicated on bad aim, bad positioning, bad awareness, etc. Personal experience testimony is of the form "Lights are overpowered because I cannot hit them when they circle strafe." This type of input is automatically not relevant.

Given the top elo bracket is likely to be less than 5% of the playerbase, their experience (especially given it's min/max or go home) is the one less likely to be balance relevant to the broader community

[sarkun]

I really envy people that routinely play matches where medium mechs are a valuable part of the team - I love medium mechs. My founder's is a hunch. I have all hunches, all mastered, I've been playing them no matter what... until the SRM nerf.

Right now there is just no point. Get yourself a Jaeger, Cataphract or a Catapult, slam big engine in it , and you have instantly a BETTER mech. Same size, more armor, more firepower, slightly less speed.

A mech mere 15 tons lighter than me, should be a threat - I should have the advantage, but if I make a mistake he should have a chance. When I roll with AC40 Jaeger, all a medium mech can do is die.

OP is right.

[aniviron]

ShinVector, on 27 June 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

I am having a lot of trouble trying understand what OP wants PGI to do with Lights/Mediums.

Lights and mediums has been getting the nerfed direct/indirectly due to many of recent patches.

But it is still not the worst to come. The thing should ultimately kill light pilots is 'Knock downs'.
Having been playing since closed BETA (kinda stopped now. taking a study break.) running into your team mates and is probably the most annoying thing that happens during a heated battle.

To me in generally:
Light mechs are for:

• Scouting and relying information back to the team.
  
• Capping bases.
  
• Light mech hunter.
  
• Spotting for LRMS barrages.
  
• Finishing off critically damage mechs regardless whether they are in a HOT zone or not.
  
• Harrasser. (I put this last as this is the most risky thing for a light mech.)

Mediums:

• Scouting if they are fast and there are no light mechs.
  
• Capping if they are fast and there are no light mechs.
  
• Light mech hunter.
  
• Support attacker / Harasser.
  
• Gaurd for Assault mechs.

This list generally gets more iffy when to go to 8 man and competative play.
Honestly I that in a light mech, I am able to influnce the outcome of a battle for victory.

Usually being the last mech alive and capping for the win in either assault or conquest.
Less common is assist or own self wipeout the remaining enemy team.

I am inclined to agree that knockdowns are going to just wreck lights and mediums when they are reimplemented. Lights and mediums tend not to have the luxury of taking much or any long-range armament since it all weighs so much, which means getting close. Getting close means running into things, since the netcode in this game is still in pretty bad shape; and getting knocked down in a medium or light means getting killed in one shot to the back.

I do take issue with your roles for lights and mediums though. Scouting is almost totally useless in this game, largely due to map design- if your team takes the centre route and the other team is not there, then they are on one of the two side routes and every map allows you to see at least one of them. Logic dictates the rest. Because the mech roles are so screwed up to begin with, it is rare that a team will split up and take more than one route, at least in a pug. Spotting for LRMs is nice, but it is very risky, and while LRMs are pretty decent right now, they are not even remotely so good that it is worth sending two players to do the job that one player could do alone if they were not using LRMs. Every mech can finish off critically damaged mechs. Light hunting is a moot point, because nobody takes lights in the first place, so why take one of your own to hunt them down when you can splatter them to slag in one or two volleys of your assault? The only real relevant role is base capping, but nobody does that because it's not fun to do, and there is no reward for doing it.

[Lagster]

To all the people proposing/supporting severe tonnage restrictions...

1) If I feel like playing my Atlas, the game should not force me to drop in a Treb just cause there's no more tonnage left.

2) Players will spend 10 minutes before every match bickering over who deserves more tonnage, then someone ragequits because he's forced to drop in a medium. You know there will be players like that.

3) I can also see players selling everything except Assaults so they can go "well, I only have Stalkers..."
Such a strict tonnage restriction might work in full premades, but it will screw up anything that involves pugs.

*edited for typo*

Edited by Lagster, 28 June 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Voidsinger]

GingerBang, on 27 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Umm, no? ELO is only useful for tryhards who "~have to be, the very best, like no one ever was~" Some people actually play games for fun, ELO doesn't account for that. You know damn well with public ELO everyone would be going "OH, YOU'RE [insert number here] YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT LOOOL!"

Actually, that's reserved for those of us who "Gotta catch em all". (and to be a Master and train them all).

Elo is transient and meaningless. It's about trying not to have losers. So is Win/Loss and Kill/Death, since they are based on false premises of equal teams. The only thing that will endure is XP-gained proficiencies. Even mechs owned changes if you sell them (I don't).

Games are decided when teams are selected for the most part. Is the game balanced? No Are lighter mechs, especially mediums shafted? Heck, yes!

The reason Role Warfare died is commercial reality. PGI is playing to the lowest common denominator in order to appeal to the maximum audience. And that lowest common denominator likes assault mechs you don't have to pay to repair after every battle, and get more rewards than the little guy. The Bigger is Better mindset, with none of the penalties that should come with being big.

The entire rewards system is structured around that mindset.

[Kmieciu]

In my opinion medium mechs are not agile enough. That means the turn rate, twist speed and arm movement is not fast enough, or rather the Heavy and Assault mechs are too agile in comparison.

This is because most mechs use the same movement parameters. In fact, an Atlas has the same movement parameters as a Hunchback. So if you put the same engine in an Atlas and in a Hunchback, the Hunchback will be 2x more agile. And I think it's not enough to make a difference.

Spoiler

Atlas AS7-D

 <MovementTuningConfiguration
  MaxMovementSpeed="16.2"
  TorsoTurnSpeedYaw="20"
  TorsoTurnSpeedPitch="11.25"
  TurnLerpLowRate="0.2"
  TurnLerpMidRate="0.15"
  TurnLerpHighRate="0.1333"
  AccelLerpLowRate="0.1875"
  AccelLerpMidRate="0.0425"
  AccelLerpHighRate="0.025"
  DecelLerpLowRate="0.15"
  DecelLerpMidRate="22.5"
  DecelLerpHighRate="22.5"
  ReverseSpeedMultiplier="0.666"
  TurnLerpLowSpeed="0"
  TurnLerpMidSpeed="0.666"
  TurnLerpHighSpeed="1.0"
  DecelLerpLowSpeed="0"
  DecelLerpMidSpeed="0.666"
  DecelLerpHighSpeed="1.0"
  AccelLerpLowSpeed="0"
  AccelLerpMidSpeed="0.666"
  AccelLerpHighSpeed="1.0"
/>
<EntityTuningConfiguration
  MechMass = "100000"
  MechMinSlideAngle = "89.0"
  MechMinFallAngle = "89.5"
  MechMaxClimbAngle = "50.0"
  BoundingBoxDimensions="5.5,7.0,3.0"
  BBHeightFromGround="10.0"
/>

Hunchback HBK-4G

<MovementTuningConfiguration
MaxMovementSpeed="16.2"
TorsoTurnSpeedYaw="20"
TorsoTurnSpeedPitch="11.25"
TurnLerpLowRate="0.2"
TurnLerpMidRate="0.15"
TurnLerpHighRate="0.1333"
AccelLerpLowRate="0.1875"
AccelLerpMidRate="0.0425"
AccelLerpHighRate="0.025"
DecelLerpLowRate="0.15"
DecelLerpMidRate="22.5"
DecelLerpHighRate="22.5"
ReverseSpeedMultiplier="0.666"
TurnLerpLowSpeed="0"
TurnLerpMidSpeed="0.666"
TurnLerpHighSpeed="1.0"
DecelLerpLowSpeed="0"
DecelLerpMidSpeed="0.666"
DecelLerpHighSpeed="1.0"
AccelLerpLowSpeed="0"
AccelLerpMidSpeed="0.666"
AccelLerpHighSpeed="1.0"
 
/>
<EntityTuningConfiguration
MechMass = "50000"
MechMinSlideAngle = "89.0"
MechMinFallAngle = "89.5"
MechMaxClimbAngle = "50.0"
BoundingBoxDimensions="5.0,5.0,1.5"
BBHeightFromGround="9.0"
/>

On the other hand - no amount of maneuvering is going to help you when 8 enemy assault mechs camp the higher base at River City.

[ShinVector]

aniviron, on 28 June 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

I am inclined to agree that knockdowns are going to just wreck lights and mediums when they are reimplemented. Lights and mediums tend not to have the luxury of taking much or any long-range armament since it all weighs so much, which means getting close. Getting close means running into things, since the netcode in this game is still in pretty bad shape; and getting knocked down in a medium or light means getting killed in one shot to the back.

I do take issue with your roles for lights and mediums though. Scouting is almost totally useless in this game, largely due to map design- if your team takes the centre route and the other team is not there, then they are on one of the two side routes and every map allows you to see at least one of them. Logic dictates the rest. Because the mech roles are so screwed up to begin with, it is rare that a team will split up and take more than one route, at least in a pug. Spotting for LRMs is nice, but it is very risky, and while LRMs are pretty decent right now, they are not even remotely so good that it is worth sending two players to do the job that one player could do alone if they were not using LRMs. Every mech can finish off critically damaged mechs. Light hunting is a moot point, because nobody takes lights in the first place, so why take one of your own to hunt them down when you can splatter them to slag in one or two volleys of your assault? The only real relevant role is base capping, but nobody does that because it's not fun to do, and there is no reward for doing it.

Well that's the thing...

Lights and Mediums have the role of being scout because they are faster.
Some people like myself like being fast and agile, and being a scout is the intended role not killing other mechs.

Take note that 4 man and 8 man is two different beasts of game though but scouting is still useful in both.

LRMs spotting is best done dedicated and GOOD LRM boats on TS. I am reluctant to do it for people who are bad at it... You die before they kill the intended target. But if done correctly...
Identify target... harass and tag the ******... team mate LRMs him to death in seconds... RUN AWAY before his team mates can retaliate...

Can any mech kill critically injured mechs ??
Nooo you don't get it... Assault vs. Assault your team made dies and you noticed this and enemy runaway and hides away from the front lines behind his team as defence... Who can survive quickly running into their defence... Assassinating that fellow and coming out alive ?? Only a light mech can do this trick more successfully than others all due to surprise and speed.

I drive lights.... (but i am taking a study break right now)
My first job as a light is to find out of the enemy team.. has lights... If the answer is yes..
I got to get them killed before I start playing with the enemy's base...

I agree there is no reward of capping or there is not enough CBill incentives..
The point is to win by any means necessary and enjoy the QQ especially if they are FedRats....

Quote

On the other hand - no amount of maneuvering is going to help you when 8 enemy assault mechs camp the higher base at River City.

Well this where patience counts...Nothing is impossible...
Eg. 8 man pug assault team camps at their base....
You team is an 4x2 sync drop balance team of light mediums and whatever...

Light found out that all assaults waiting at base...
What do you do ?
Camp too !! Wait and wait for 15 mins... until the pug team looses patiences and comes after you.
Egg... Them on with information warfare calling them cowards or what not.
In assault you only need +1 kill at time out to win...

Also camping at base does not work for Conquest..

Edited by ShinVector, 28 June 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Enigmos]

p00k, on 25 June 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

i.e. role warfare is a busted myth

Role warfare is our responsibility, not the developers'. If we don't have the discipline and practice to coordinate tactically it isn't the fault of the game.

[DogmeatX]

Since the Repair/Rearm got removed my hunchback (mastered) has been gathering dust.

I'll take my Light mech if teaming up with someone on voice chat, or my 'phract or Atlas but basically no reason anymore to take medium. No reason to even buy another medium chassis.

It's not about skill/experience (I've mastered all of the above)

[Taemien]

DogmeatX, on 28 June 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Since the Repair/Rearm got removed my hunchback (mastered) has been gathering dust.

I'll take my Light mech if teaming up with someone on voice chat, or my 'phract or Atlas but basically no reason anymore to take medium. No reason to even buy another medium chassis.

It's not about skill/experience (I've mastered all of the above)

Repair and Rearm never stopped me from using Heavy or Assaults. Even with higher costs I was still netting 80,000 to 120,000 cbills after repairs and rearming were done. It was only on a loss would I see dramatic results in revenue loss, and only if I was gibbed right off the bat which rarely happened. Reason I bring this up is repair and rearm wouldn't affect the weight classes people would bring. Back in those days the only assaults were Atlases and Awesomes (and ECM didn't have any effect, so DDCs were rare). So that is why Heavies and Mediums were a little more popular.

I still think mediums just need to be better. Even if it means making them the most powerful class in terms of mobility, armament, and speed ratios. If that happens than lights, Heavies and Assaults would move to support roles of the medium. I think this is the prospect most people fear which is why they steer clear away from it. But in the end this might be the best thing.

How to achieve this? One way is to limit the engine size of Heavies and Assaults to whatever engine they can mount being the highest. Meaning a Stalker can never go above 255 engine, atlas never above 300, ect. Dragons and Enforcers will still maintain their speed (due to larger stock engines). In addition armor values cannot be raised (but can be rearranged) on heavy and assaults.

What this does is limits the mobility of larger chassis as well as their torso twist speeds making them vulnerable to higher mobility threats such as lights and mediums.

The result? Possibly a field dominated by lights and mediums, supported by heavies and assaults. Is this something you all would want?

[RG Notch]

Xie Belvoule, on 26 June 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

QFT

HHoD does the same damn thing in our drop decks, it's even easier when you can load up on the OP Stalkers.

P.S. If you don't know who p00k is, you should S T F U on matters of balance and competitive gameplay

Yup there out, big old elite player back slap! Woot our elite skilled overlords will balance the game for their play and the rest of you best suck it up and be happy they are saving it for you. And then these folks seriously wonder why their self congratulating e peen stroking posts aren't embraced by the unwashed masses.

[p00k]

i see the thread has shifted to the 99% raging against the 1%. forget it. it's besides the point.

some may think in casual play, lights and mediums are comparable to assaults. perhaps you think you're the best medium pilot ever, and have dropped countless trial atlases solo. good for you. it matters not. bottom line is, project phoenix, and therefore pgi, doesn't agree with you. the assumption of that pricing package is that the assault mech is the best of the four, and therefore only available with the most expensive package.

there IS a package of light only. there IS a package with light+med. there IS a package with light+med+hvy. and there IS a package with light+med+hvy+assault. HOWEVER, there IS NOT a package with assault only. there IS NOT a package with assault+hvy. there IS NOT a package with assault+hvy+med.

although the locust, shadow hawk, thunderbolt, and battlemaster WILL ALL BE DONE BY OCT 15, they will be withholding the assault for 3 months. and the heavy for 2. they're not withholding the locust for 3 months. they're not withholding the shadow hawk for 2. and this is intentional. the assault is only available in the most expensive package, and is withheld for the longest time for non-package purchasers.

if you think my game experience is irrelevant, fine. but project phoenix's pricing scheme and the mechs' standard variant release schedule are an unequivocal statement that role warfare is dead.

[trollocaustic]

Quote

Meaning a Stalker can never go above 255 engine

And rob them of a heat sink

Also @Ragingidiotlightpilot

Why is role warfare dead?

They decided to have 4 options, they are witholding them so there would be a reason to buy the 80$ package instead of just the 20$ one.

They need an incentive and a reason to add cheaper packages.

So they just went and did it this way.

Take your godamn tinfoil hat off.

Edited by trollocaustic, 28 June 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[Crockdaddy]

I basically agreed with Pook's original premise until I saw the pending map updates for movement. Once that is implemented, lights and mediums I should think will see an increased role. Hopefully.

[ShinVector]

p00k, on 28 June 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

i see the thread has shifted to the 99% raging against the 1%. forget it. it's besides the point.

some may think in casual play, lights and mediums are comparable to assaults. perhaps you think you're the best medium pilot ever, and have dropped countless trial atlases solo. good for you. it matters not. bottom line is, project phoenix, and therefore pgi, doesn't agree with you. the assumption of that pricing package is that the assault mech is the best of the four, and therefore only available with the most expensive package.

there IS a package of light only. there IS a package with light+med. there IS a package with light+med+hvy. and there IS a package with light+med+hvy+assault. HOWEVER, there IS NOT a package with assault only. there IS NOT a package with assault+hvy. there IS NOT a package with assault+hvy+med.

although the locust, shadow hawk, thunderbolt, and battlemaster WILL ALL BE DONE BY OCT 15, they will be withholding the assault for 3 months. and the heavy for 2. they're not withholding the locust for 3 months. they're not withholding the shadow hawk for 2. and this is intentional. the assault is only available in the most expensive package, and is withheld for the longest time for non-package purchasers.

if you think my game experience is irrelevant, fine. but project phoenix's pricing scheme and the mechs' standard variant release schedule are an unequivocal statement that role warfare is dead.

Hmmmm.... If this thread is raging about the price plan for project phoenix well...
I am sort unhappy with the package as well...

The only things that interests me is Loyal bonus for community warfare.
Problem is, at this point of time.. This is only CW related thing they had actually confirmed and released so, far.

You do not even get MC with this package...
Can't we just wait and buy the Medallion and mechs that I actually want later ??

Honestly based on the specs...

I do not want the Locust nor do I want to play the Locust simply because it is terrible... I have a very similar mech it is called the Spider K.. And it sucks !! The only thing good about it is that it is hard to kill. I am not sure whether locust will have that property since they aren't slim like spiders.

[Lord Perversor]

p00k, on 28 June 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

i see the thread has shifted to the 99% raging against the 1%. forget it. it's besides the point.

some may think in casual play, lights and mediums are comparable to assaults. perhaps you think you're the best medium pilot ever, and have dropped countless trial atlases solo. good for you. it matters not. bottom line is, project phoenix, and therefore pgi, doesn't agree with you. the assumption of that pricing package is that the assault mech is the best of the four, and therefore only available with the most expensive package.

there IS a package of light only. there IS a package with light+med. there IS a package with light+med+hvy. and there IS a package with light+med+hvy+assault. HOWEVER, there IS NOT a package with assault only. there IS NOT a package with assault+hvy. there IS NOT a package with assault+hvy+med.

although the locust, shadow hawk, thunderbolt, and battlemaster WILL ALL BE DONE BY OCT 15, they will be withholding the assault for 3 months. and the heavy for 2. they're not withholding the locust for 3 months. they're not withholding the shadow hawk for 2. and this is intentional. the assault is only available in the most expensive package, and is withheld for the longest time for non-package purchasers.

if you think my game experience is irrelevant, fine. but project phoenix's pricing scheme and the mechs' standard variant release schedule are an unequivocal statement that role warfare is dead.

Or it's an attempt o trick all the crowd gathering fans of heavy/assault mechs to pay thinking they got the advantage of p2w Mechs for 2-3 months.

And then PGI Game Balance kicks and suddenly Meds become rather useful and the heavier is better crew begins their cicle of Forum cry!!.

[Ralgas]

so because they came up with 4 packages instead of 29 (and if the mech costs were not separated that would just lead to "assault shouldn't cost as much as a light" thread wars) and plan out the extra's on top you're equating it into role warfare is dead?

that's an awful long bow to draw, especially given they will all be available via c-bills down the track.

Edited by Ralgas, 29 June 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[Mercules]

PEEFsmash, on 27 June 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You MUST play at a high level and against high level opponents in order for your in-game experience to be balance relevant.

However, being a high level player is a MINIMUM requirement for relevance.

I'm not arguing that someone who doesn't understand the game can make a valid argument about the game. I am arguing with your supposition that a person must play in 8 man queues to have any "relevance" or be able to understand the game. You can make those letters as big as you want, but it won't make your statement any more true.

[3rdworld]

Ralgas, on 29 June 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

so because they came up with 4 packages instead of 29 (and if the mech costs were not separated that would just lead to "assault shouldn't cost as much as a light" thread wars) and plan out the extra's on top you're equating it into role warfare is dead?

that's an awful long bow to draw, especially given they will all be available via c-bills down the track.

Or they could have allowed you to pick mechs like they did with founders

[3rdworld]

Mercules, on 02 July 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

I'm not arguing that someone who doesn't understand the game can make a valid argument about the game. I am arguing with your supposition that a person must play in 8 man queues to have any "relevance" or be able to understand the game. You can make those letters as big as you want, but it won't make your statement any more true.

His point: Listen to NGNG, Ross says he sees a few PPC mechs but doesn't see them as a problem.

Last night, in a pug drop 1 team had 5 PPC stalkers. In 8s it is much worse, every mech not a light generally uses PPCs for their main damage.

Ross draws conclusions based on his experience, but his experience does not match reality.

So you can either balance the game based on lower ELO players, in which it may seem fairly balanced at the moment. Or you look at the higher levels and it is a complete mess.