69 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Avengar, on 29 June 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I disagree I think cutting their range in half would put them in balance, every match you hear people complain about AC20 lameness.

You generally only hear complaints from people who are terrible, and get headshotted because they are standing still like imbeciles.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Roland, on 29 June 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

You generally only hear complaints from people who are terrible, and get headshotted because they are standing still like imbeciles.

The biggest downside of the AC20 is the fact its so ******* cumbersome. Only a select few mechs can even equip it, and even fewer with an XL.

And generally, yes. But I do love shooting people in the face with them.

Edited by mwhighlander, 29 June 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Zordicron]

Dont change ANYTHING until hit detection gets fixed. Lasers and other hitscan/multihit weapons(missiles, MG) do not detect all hits. Yes, AC20 falls into this, however when it misses, all dmg is missed. This happens less as dmg is not split between packet transmissions. With lasers, it is entirely possible half the dmg is not detected(even though it shows at the match end in stats) when fireing a multi laser salvo. Same with missiles. Same with MG.

You can see this effect at work- even MG jagers can have massive variation in effectiveness. If all hits register for one pilot, 6 MG DD does 6 DPS. Thats nothing to sneeze at. When it doesnt register, 6 MG DD might only be doing 2-4 DPS. 2 DPS is pretty sad.

So then, trying to balance weapons is a waste of time. If hitscan stuff actually worked, why would anyone want to run an AC40 jager when they could run a 4 LL mech that hits for only 4 less dmg, but weighs 8 tons less, no ammo to explode or limit on shots, and outranges the AC20? Why dont people do it now? Answer: because for any given shot, the 36 point 4 LL alpha is doing 0-100% of the dmg. So suddenly it is not a 4 point dmg variation, it is much more.

Same could be said for things like 4P hunch. 9 ML? come on that should strip armor off a jager side torso in no time flat. But it doesnt, ot like it should. because 9 ML worth of hitscan is a lot of hit detection to keep up with, so the game wont, or cant, or is coded not to for discon. bugs.

Fix hit detection errors. THEN balance weapons.

[XFactor777]

FupDup, on 29 June 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

This is what raw, unadulterated Clan power looked like in TT:
Characteristics:
*60-point alpha-strike
*Same heat per alpha as a 4 ERPPC Stalker (but 50% more damage)
*30 DHS (in TT, this lets the mech alpha nonstop for a long time before getting too hot)
*Just a hair less armor than an Atlas (0.5 tons less)
*64 kph speed (same speed as 4 ERPPC Stalker or faster?)


Although the Hellstar is one of my favorite mechs, anything wielding its loadout would break the game in half (the Hellstar is Dark Age but the tech needed to make it exists well before the Clan invasion, so it can be replicated). This thing would make even the most grizzled, war-hardened 4 ERPPC Stalkers cry tears of blood at how broken it is. Is that really so fun?

Forget the Hellstar (can't understand why people are stuck on this mech) and fear the real threats like this http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kodiak and this http://www.sarna.net...re_Wolf_(Daishi

[Lootee]

XFactor777, on 29 June 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Forget the Hellstar (can't understand why people are stuck on this mech) and fear the real threats like this http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kodiak and this http://www.sarna.net...re_Wolf_(Daishi

Get a Kraken and put 4 clan gauss rifles on it. Same damage as that Hellstar or a Masakari, except it generates only 4 heat every salvo and because the weapons are ballistic you'll still be doing massive damage at a longer range than the energy weapons can. Those ERPPCs WILL make you overheat in MWO, because of the doubled+ fire rates.

[mike29tw]

mwhighlander, on 29 June 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

I see your laser reflective armor and raise you...

The PPC Blue Shield

Please don't implement this. It's like PGI's ECM, only worse.

[Elizander]

Can just make an exception to Ballistics rule where AC/20 only has 2x the range and not 3x. People are still going to run up to it though and take 40 to the face and cry on the forums.

[KAT Ayanami]

Avengar, on 26 June 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

cut the range down to max 300 and increase cooldown

Yes. Sure.

Also, increase the tonnage of the weapon by 3 and only allow 5 bullets per ton on the ammo.

[GODzillaGSPB]

My Yen Lo Wang woould like to have a word with you! -.-

[Rahnu]

Here's an idea:

Normalize the DPS of all autocannons to 4. This means giving AC/2s a cd of 0.5s, AC/5s a cd of 1.25, AC/10s a cd of 2.5, and AC/20s a cd of 5. Why do this? Because massive burst damage is a huge advantage. This is undeniable fact at this point. All of the constant-fire weapons suffer considerably when compared to weapons with massively high alphas.

It goes like this for ballistics: At the bottom of the pile you have the greatest DPS/weight/slot efficiency and the highest range, but the lowest damage/heat efficiency and you have to maintain fire on target in order to maximize damage. Having incredibly high peak DPS helps to offset this terrible disadvantage and makes it worth fielding versus something that can just fire and twist away or take cover afterwards. Furthermore, the "instant kill" factor of multiple high-alpha boats makes high-sustained-damage weapons even more worthless, up to the point where you must be able to kill a few times faster in order to justify the investment (since you are essentially dependent on enemy piloting mistakes in order to win otherwise).

[Fate 6]

Avengar, on 29 June 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I disagree I think cutting their range in half would put them in balance, every match you hear people complain about AC20 lameness.

No, you hear about AC40 cheese. A single AC20 is fine. The weapon is quite balanced on its own.

[FupDup]

XFactor777, on 29 June 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Forget the Hellstar (can't understand why people are stuck on this mech) and fear the real threats like this http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kodiak and this http://www.sarna.net...re_Wolf_(Daishi

Those mechs have four different weapon groups each and are thus not specialized. In the context of MWO, generalists (other than PPC boats which are good in all tasks but especially long range) are ineffective because they can't go through doubled armor as fast as specialists. Also, having that many weapon groups means you have to manage the ranges of each and that can distract you from more important things like the actual fight (i.e. torso twisting damage). Having more than 3 weapon groups is just plain bad. The Hellstar only has to worry about a single weapon group, freeing the pilot's senses to be concentrated on actual combat instead of range management (don't fire weapons that aren't in range or you waste ammo/heat).

Edited by FupDup, 30 June 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Bagheera]

Fate 6, on 30 June 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

No, you hear about AC40 cheese. A single AC20 is fine. The weapon is quite balanced on its own.

Almost This. I never hear bitching about AC anything in matches. People either ***** about PPCs or blame their own team for their mistakes. No one says anything about ACs in matches. Its only here on the forums that people come to cry about them, and then you are correct, only crying about them in pairs.

It took MONTHS to get a decent and balanced AC20 during closed beta. People cry about AC40 cheese because they are too <insert reason> to avoid walking up to it and taking two to the face.

AC40 just isn't the problem people make it out to be, and any changes to the AC20 mean it goes back to being worthless on its own and every just fits gauss instead.

Which still isn't going to make people the the OP happy, nor is it going to make the guy who said to increase weight by 3 tons and reduce fire rate a better player. (Seriously dude, you almost never hear me say l2p, but if you think changes that dramatic are in order then you must really need to l2p)

Edited by Bagheera, 30 June 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Koniving]

*Deletes.* Wasn't any truth to it. Goons are goons, it seems, their stuff wasn't provable through testing. Though it raises interesting questions; namely dissipation rates.

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Nubsternator]

SweetWarmIce, on 29 June 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

If you see a Mech with an AC/20 do not get close to it.

The problem with that is the mechs have too close of speeds. Heavies outpace mediums, and assaults can keep heavies in their threatening range. We need more distinct and vairied speeds in the classes.

[Raso]

I do think that the AC20 walks too much into the AC10's territory. Because of it's insane damage it deals competitive damage with the AC10 out past the AC10's optimal range.

I think that the AC20 could use a slight range reduction (nothing too serious, maybe down to 220m) along side the AC10 getting a rate of fire buff (2 seconds) and a slight range buff (520m maybe). I think the problem is that (especially in the current meta) there's just little reason to use other ACs. If you can fir an AC20 you use an AC20 period. That's about the extent of of the thought process you go through while "deciding" if you should use an AC20 or something else. There needs to be more trade offs, mech warriors need to be challenged to make tough decisions when building a mech and when implementing said mech in combat.

[eblackthorn]

I find it strange that we are still seeing this thread, AC 20 OP. Jager's mounting two of them is OP. Its not that bad! Powerful yes but with very sever limitations. What I really don't understand is I never see anything about 4x AC/2's being an issue! (not that I think they are) but they put out massive amounts of damage and can do it from across the map

[Schrottfrosch]

ACs and especially the AC/20 are being simulated totally wrong in this game - why?

Please read some MW-books, descriptions of weapon systems in rulebooks and lore.

An AC is supposed to shoot a burst of minimum 3 shots (Chemjet) up to 10 shots (Crusher SH Cannon) - depending on Manufacturer. They are being summed up into the class of AC/20s due to ease of simulation with the help of dices while playing a tabletop game - MWO simulates basically a simulation - which is bad.

The AC/20 in the current form never existed in the MW-Universe. Sorry to crush some of your Alpha-Warrior wet dreams...


BTW: Check my thread on how to change this:

http://mwomercs.com/...e-alpha-builds/

Edited by Schrottfrosch, 30 June 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Escef]

Koniving, on 29 June 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

ACs are actually multi-shot guns. Hence the name Auto(matic) Cannons.

The word autocannon simply means a cannon with an autoloader, it does not imply anything about the weapon's actual rate of fire. In fact, if your autoloader is slow enough, someone with a hand loaded cannon might actually be able to out pace your RoF (I think the entire weapon system would be scrapped if the autoloader was that slow, though). However, autoloaders on cannons allow larger rounds to be used more easily, have you ever tried pulling a spent shell and slapping in a fresh one by hand? WWI artillery must have been broken people's backs.

Anyway, yes, ACs in CBT have always been described as firing streams of shells. Which would make them a sort of delayed hitscan, I guess. Too close to lasers, IMO, at least for this kind of gameplay. It works fine the way it is, and I've no complaints.

I think the AC20, AC5, and AC2 are fine. I think the AC10 needs a slight RoF or range buff, and the LB10X needs an option for solid slugs. That's the extent of my thoughts on ACs in this game.

[Roland]

Making AC's into terribad machine guns, like the UAC's were in MW4, is one of the worst possible things you could do to this game.

Seriously, it's like you people don't even consider what the actual rammifications of your proposed changes would be.