522 replies to this topic

[Renalvic3312]

I saw the Victor in the huge section..... When is it coming out?

[Hexenhammer]

Monsoon, on 29 June 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

If people are going to leave over this, then I say too bad. Because many, many of us came here looking for a Simulation game, not a action FPS. To us, this is just the beginning, water impacting speed will definitely have to be addressed in the next round of Movement Behaviour adjustments. Personally, I hope those people stay and embrace a more realistic feel that these changes will bring.

P.S. I say this as a primarily Heavy/Assault pilot. Yes, it'll mean piloting my Cataphract and Atlas will be more of a pain, but that'll also mean more immersion for me, as running up steep inclines without any loss of speed, was always ridiculous.

I'm looking forward to these changes even though I'm best in my atlas. The only reason why people are going to complain is because it limits them.

[Stingray Productions]

super excited for this change, thank you!

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 30 June 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

What are you talking about? JJ and maneuverability are already vastly superior to armor when it comes to staying alive. and now theyre going to be even better.



I mostly agree with that. But in the tabletop game, the tradeoff for assaults not being able to go up steep inclines, was that they had way more armor and firepower than anything else. But Atlases only get 2 more hardpoints than Jenners... which is pathetic. And speed has always been better than armor in this game, which is the complete opposite of tabletop.

This change makes sense from a simulation standpoint. But from a balance standpoint its a complete mess. It really is going to make non-jumpjet assaults useless on certain maps, notably canyon and alpine. To implement something like this without the ability to choose what mechs you play on particular maps is just bad.

Hardpoints only mean something if you actually want to use the same weapons as the Jenner does.

6 Energy hardpoints on a Jenner means 6 Medium Lasers.
6 Energy hardpoints on a 85 ton mech means 6 PPCs.
2 ballistic hardpoints on a Raven means 2 Machine Guns.
2 ballistic hardpoints on an Atlas means 1 AC/20 or 2 Ultra AC/5.

If the low number of hard points is any problem, it is that you can't build a simple shrot range mech assault with 12 medium lasers or something like that - you either take LLs that not just increase damage, but also range, or you have to take a ballistic weapon. (Back in the old days, when SRMs where still good, SRMs were also a viable option.)

[Qrbaza]

There should be heat increase from the engine while walking up the hill. More steep the slope more heat is generated whil walking uphill...

[Hydrophobia]

(Not adding anything new to the topic here, but in the interest of beta feedback:)

Yeah, I'll be part of the "sounds mostly good, but a little bit confused about some points" brigade.
I am actually surprised that so many people think this is a good idea as in theory it restricts a majority, but most of my mechs have jump jets so it does seem like fun to have an extra benefit for that to make up for the crappy shake nerf the other week. It should mix up the strategy though so I guess that is the attraction.
The classifications are definitely weird though, jenners, jagers, cataphracts and stalkers are definitely too well off and poor awesomes, quickdraws and catapults have obviously done something to offend the developers.
Also, I agree with the suggestions that surely speed/engine size have a bearing on all of this? Maybe a calculation based on weight and speed is a better option than the seemingly random categories?

[Frost Lord]

LaserAngel, on 27 June 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I love it a lot. I'm pouring over the maps to see where I won't be able to go. I just wish the Stalker was pushed into the Huge Category. The Awesome at 80 tons should have a little perk.

Though I was surprised to see the Victor (80 tons) in Huge while the Stalker (85 tons) is in Large with the Awesome (80 tons).

My Catapult C1 is now king of the hill on Forest Colony now along with the Blackjack! Jump Jets are much more meaningful now.

haven't really looked closely to the grouping but im guessing chicken walkers get a bit of a disadvantage. they should guive them a bit of a maneuvering bonus or they could accelerate faster.

[Chandley]

Id like to throw in a virtual vote for considering mechs with hands and lower arm actuators. Mechs with both on both arms (really, only a very few: COM, SDR, HBK, QKD, AS7) should get a boost to going up slopes. Especially since out right climbing is likely never going to be introduced.

If you have only one hand (CN9, TBT, CTF, AWS, HGN), you should get a lesser boost. I'd even argue having a lower arm actuator should count for something, to make not being able to mount an AC/20 in that arm ballistic slot sting a little less, so a CN9-A might be better on the hills than a Yen-Lo Wang, and DRG could get a little love. Make the choice of a HGN-733C or CTF-4X make a difference (both remove the handless arms lower-arm actuator).

And no way is a Stalker better on hills than a Victor (which is both lighter, faster, and has a hand!). I argue here that a Stalker is worse at hills than any of the other Assaults, the Atlas included.

[Frost Lord]

Chandley, on 01 July 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Id like to throw in a virtual vote for considering mechs with hands and lower arm actuators. Mechs with both on both arms (really, only a very few: COM, SDR, HBK, QKD, AS7) should get a boost to going up slopes. Especially since out right climbing is likely never going to be introduced.

If you have only one hand (CN9, TBT, CTF, AWS, HGN), you should get a lesser boost. I'd even argue having a lower arm actuator should count for something, to make not being able to mount an AC/20 in that arm ballistic slot sting a little less, so a CN9-A might be better on the hills than a Yen-Lo Wang, and DRG could get a little love. Make the choice of a HGN-733C or CTF-4X make a difference (both remove the handless arms lower-arm actuator).

And no way is a Stalker better on hills than a Victor (which is both lighter, faster, and has a hand!). I argue here that a Stalker is worse at hills than any of the other Assaults, the Atlas included.

I don't think the arms would be much help in most cases as they would likely not be able to support the mech it would be really cumbersome for the larger ones as well, the commando and the spider might be OK but you wold probably also louse more time righting yore self anyway.

It would be good to get some reasoning for there choices tho.

Edited by Frost Lord, 01 July 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Neozero]

Overall I am happy with this concept. However I would like to know more about the metrics used to figure out what mechs belong in what group. I have a hard time grasping the concept of some of these mechs which are clearly heavier or lighter then their new angle subclass implies.

Catapract is better then a quickdraw? Stalker superior to the Victor for climbing that is just silly in my book. I understand the desire to put your own spin on the MW franchise however this just seems a bit backwards in many ways to me. I would have thought PGI would have gone the route of engine ratings and mass to figure out just how a mech could or could not climb. Obviously the type of leg should play a role too, however how this is all calculated should be made transparent for the whole community so we can have a more complete understanding of this system.

[Arctu]

TERRIBLE TERRIBLE IDEA

Especially to give some mechs advantages over others of the same weight class.

[hammerreborn]

Renalvic3312, on 30 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

I saw the Victor in the huge section..... When is it coming out?

Hero mech probably next patch (tomorrow?) and regular the 2nd patch (16th?)

TOGSolid, on 30 June 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Why is the Jenner being listed as a tiny mech? It weighs 35 tons (same as the Raven) , has jump jets, hits like a truck for its size, and is very fast. It needs to be categorized as a small mech. There is no reason to buff the Jenner even more by making it count as a tiny mech.

Who cares where the Jenner is placed, to be perfectly honest. Unless you're aware of Jenners that don't use JJs, these changes don't effect them AT ALL.

[Frost Lord]

Arctu, on 01 July 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

TERRIBLE TERRIBLE IDEA

Especially to give some mechs advantages over others of the same weight class.

well there isn't really any way of avoiding it other then making the game really basic and boring not to mention less simulated. you already have lots of differences in mechs of the same wait class. some have lower arms some have bigger cockpits, some have shielded cockpits, plus weapon groupings Module slots Max engine size firing arks obscured vision and so on. IMO the best way to get the most enjoyment out of this game is take mechs you like and play them how you like.

[Chandley]

Frost Lord, on 01 July 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

I don't think the arms would be much help in most cases as they would likely not be able to support the mech it would be really cumbersome for the larger ones as well, the commando and the spider might be OK but you wold probably also louse more time righting yore self anyway.

It would be good to get some reasoning for there choices tho.

I can only use as my source the TT, which canonically has even 100 tonners with hands climbing cliffs. Clearly, the source material considers the arms strong enough to support the mech. And Im not making an appeal to realism here (I dont think I ever would when it comes to anything Battletech related). Im saying climbing is never going in, in all likelyhood, so letting mechs with hands get a benefit on slopes is the next best option, now that we're getting a limitation on slopes.

Those hand actuators have to be good for something. No physical attacks, no picking things up, no climbing... waste of space right now. The lower arm actuators, PGI seems to use to allow side to side arm movment (rather than just up and down like on a Stalker) but they are inconsistent. Or at least I believe they are, I dont think Ive noticed my Yen-Lo have its arm AC locked to up and down where an -A could go side to side... so most of the time a lower arm actuator has some use, even if its not applied consistently. But those hands are really useless. So, this gives those mechs something for those slots.

[Vasces Diablo]

For those of you asking why "mech X is in group Y", pls see page 5. It is explained via a post from a different forum. HoboDan pasted it here. The reason is purely a technical one.

Edited by Vasces Diablo, 01 July 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[tuffy963]

Vasces Diablo, on 01 July 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

For those of you asking why "mech X is in group Y", pls see page 5. It is explained via a post from a different forum. HoboDan pasted it here. The reason is purely a technical one.

Thanks for pointing this out! After reading that post I realize that this archtype has very little to do trying to simulate climbing characteristics between different mechs and everything to do with the technical limitations of the game engine.... bummer.

[Renalvic3312]

hammerreborn, on 01 July 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Hero mech probably next patch (tomorrow?) and regular the 2nd patch (16th?)

Victor was a mech in mech warrior 4: http://th09.devianta...ter-d3alx4e.jpg

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor

Edited by Renalvic3312, 01 July 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[Tennex]

best solution would probably be to use a differnt set of categories for hill climbing ability and call it
[maneuverability]. This new categorization will be strictly used for speed of mech up an incline mostly based on a mech's tonnage. Plus it can be sort of a quirk for certain mechs. (mech A has better climbing quirk etc.)

[size] - the catagorization they currently use now for both movement and collision box, will instead be exclusive for collision box. So that the physical size of a mech has no play on how it can climb hills. (not sure why sizing has anything to do with speed up an incline, if anything it has more to do with the mass, as well as traction)

[Caswallon]

Hmm

On one hand glad the Devs are "improving" the game still; And anything that tones down the improbable mountaineering on Alpine gets my vote.

However, once again the method by which the Dev team do this entirely reasonable concept is bizzaro strange to me. Raven and Jenners leg types are a good example as others have said. They seem to have their categories reversed to me..

But I'll reserve judgement till I experience the rules a few times. Fingers crossed folks..

[Ninthshadow]

This is going to change alot and I am looking forward to it.