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Next Patch Implements End To Ridge Humping? Nerf To Assaults.


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#101 MaddMaxx

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:12 AM

View PostFate 6, on 28 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Large: Quickdraw, Stalker?!

Huge: Victor

I haven't been this dumbfounded since they removed GD. How is a Stalker smaller than a Victor, and how is it on the same level as a Quickdraw?


Perhaps if you actually read the OP you would be dumb less.

Quote

For that reason, the 'Mech archetypes looked at grouping relative size (height, length, and width) as its main consideration. Because of the extra big shoulders of the missile boxes, and the very long nose, the catapult would need to be in a larger capsule category than the heavier Cataphract. I don't think that you'll find the movement abilities between two neighboring archetypes so substantial that it would be effectively nerfing or giving substantial advantages to any 'Mech that seems out of order due to its assumed weight but smaller frame. Especially with engine speed and momentum of lighter 'Mechs still being factored in (read: a slow moving Cataphract in a smaller movement archetype is going to probably still have a harder longer time than a faster moving Catapult at climbing any substantial hill).


#102 armyof1

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:18 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 28 June 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:


Perhaps if you actually read the OP you would be dumb less.


It's still a bad call, it just once again points to how the Stalker being made too small for its' weight will reap another reward for that old mistake.

#103 Dracol

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:19 AM

Looking forward to how this changes game play.

I just hope the training grounds will also reflect the change. Personally, I'll be spending time figuring where I can and cannot go without be shot at.

#104 Sephlock

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:34 AM

This is going to turn Alpine into a super campy killing field/even more of a mech hiking simulator.

On the other hand, I like the implications for Canyon.

it may have mixed results for Tourmaline, and for maps like River City and River City night, I don't think it will make much difference at all (they already made that one hill out of bounds, and ramps have been added to make places more accessible).

#105 Weztside

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:56 AM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement. If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.

It is already a huge pain to get a Stalker up a ridge in Canyon Network. Is it going to be impossible now?

Caustic? Alpine? I mean, look, you just can't make a change like this without also modifying some maps. It would be like dramatically modifying the LRM flight arc so buildings and hills are no longer effective cover, and expecting LRMs not to become massively over-powered. Only an ***** would do that. Oh ... wait ...

Sure hope PGI has some new maps in the hopper.



I remember a certain NGNG podcast where they had a Q&A session with the lead map designer at PGI. He basically said that Alpine is his most hated map because it was designed around certain mechs not being able to traverse the slopes. Those slopes are designed to control the flow of the battle and make both sides of the map even. All of the maps are designed with these movement penalties for mechs in mind and will actually work as intended when its implemented. We'll see the game change. We'll see less assaults and more mobile mechs. If you ask me thats a very very very good thing. OH yeah, we're also getting 12v12!!!!!!!!!!!!

#106 MongerMan

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:17 AM

This is fantastic. A step in the right direction. I was just talking to my brother about how the biggest problem with JJ's is the fact that they dont give the advantage they had on TT.

We where wondering when movement penalties would arive and make JJ's way more usefull.

Now they need to add broken terrain penalties, then things get even more interesting.

Thanks!

#107 keith

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:17 AM

View PostWeztside, on 28 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:



I remember a certain NGNG podcast where they had a Q&A session with the lead map designer at PGI. He basically said that Alpine is his most hated map because it was designed around certain mechs not being able to traverse the slopes. Those slopes are designed to control the flow of the battle and make both sides of the map even. All of the maps are designed with these movement penalties for mechs in mind and will actually work as intended when its implemented. We'll see the game change. We'll see less assaults and more mobile mechs. If you ask me thats a very very very good thing. OH yeah, we're also getting 12v12!!!!!!!!!!!!


no this is bad. look at alpine, the places u can't no go up hills and make u funnel into. there are now maybe 4 routes to go with ground pounded mechs. how does this make game play better? with how jj work most of the hills u will not be able to get up with jjs. pgi keeps dumbing down the game. this is a bad thing

#108 MaddMaxx

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:18 AM

View Postarmyof1, on 28 June 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:


It's still a bad call, it just once again points to how the Stalker being made too small for its' weight will reap another reward for that old mistake.


And like everything else, it is a great start. I feel bad for those who live in worlds built around their own perfection that have to come here and be over-run with mediocrity, I really do. Please forgive us our weaknesses and allow us to continue to exist if for no other reason as to be amusement for yourselves. We will try harder next time. (holy smokes batman)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 June 2013 - 11:18 AM.


#109 Sephlock

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:32 AM

View Postkeith, on 28 June 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:



no this is bad. look at alpine, the places u can't no go up hills and make u funnel into. there are now maybe 4 routes to go with ground pounded mechs. how does this make game play better? with how jj work most of the hills u will not be able to get up with jjs. pgi keeps dumbing down the game. this is a bad thing
Honestly, I have mixed feelings on this, and have come to the conclusion that we'll probably need to wait and see to find out how it'll really work out...

I can see both good and bad outcomes...

#110 armyof1

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 28 June 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:


And like everything else, it is a great start. I feel bad for those who live in worlds built around their own perfection that have to come here and be over-run with mediocrity, I really do. Please forgive us our weaknesses and allow us to continue to exist if for no other reason as to be amusement for yourselves. We will try harder next time. (holy smokes batman)


So what are you saying, since you aim towards being mediocre it's ok to do some obvious mistakes?

Edited by armyof1, 28 June 2013 - 11:48 AM.


#111 Howdy Doody

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:00 PM

View Postkeith, on 28 June 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:


no this is bad. look at alpine, the places u can't no go up hills and make u funnel into. there are now maybe 4 routes to go with ground pounded mechs. how does this make game play better? with how jj work most of the hills u will not be able to get up with jjs. pgi keeps dumbing down the game. this is a bad thing


What I do think is it opens up the real need for More engine. Right now Engine size is ALWAYS on the back burner for bigger weapons since you can just 50kph yourself anywhere you need to go. Now you may need to sacrifice some guns for speed, which I think is a GREAT thing.

I've spent a good chunk of time just figuring out what guns I can put on my 94kph Jager! Heck I also think I may FINALLY work on some meds now that there is a good reason for it.

I LOVE this change for so many reasons.

#112 Twisted Power

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

My highlander will not be affected. JJ for the win.

#113 Sephlock

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostHowdy Doody, on 28 June 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:



What I do think is it opens up the real need for More engine. Right now Engine size is ALWAYS on the back burner for bigger weapons since you can just 50kph yourself anywhere you need to go. Now you may need to sacrifice some guns for speed, which I think is a GREAT thing.

I've spent a good chunk of time just figuring out what guns I can put on my 94kph Jager! Heck I also think I may FINALLY work on some meds now that there is a good reason for it.

I LOVE this change for so many reasons.


As it is, I've started to lean away from that philosophy in my mech designs- there are too many times when you can round a corner into a firing squad, and having a dozen more tons of weapons and/or ammo is not going to save you- but being able to run the **** away will.

Likewise, speed can turn an agonizingly boring map like Alpine or (to a lesser extent) Tourmaline- where it is actually possible to go the full 15 minutes without ever firing a shot or even seeing an enemy, into something manageable.

I think the net effect will be good, but we'll have to see... I can forsee a lot of complaining about LRM users on or behind ridges (although the LRM whiners will find some reason to complain regardless), and I don't see anything wrong with encouraging more fights like this:



#114 TOGSolid

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:06 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement. If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.

It is already a huge pain to get a Stalker up a ridge in Canyon Network. Is it going to be impossible now?

Caustic? Alpine? I mean, look, you just can't make a change like this without also modifying some maps. It would be like dramatically modifying the LRM flight arc so buildings and hills are no longer effective cover, and expecting LRMs not to become massively over-powered. Only an ***** would do that. Oh ... wait ...

Sure hope PGI has some new maps in the hopper.

Sounds like someone is super nerd raged that he won't be able to hill hump in a PPC Stalker anymore.

#115 Sephlock

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:07 PM

For what it's worth, I think he has a valid point (and some good reason for his cynicism), but I think that things are getting better and better (albeit slowly).

Besides, PGI has altered maps in the past (adding ramps, etc) so even if this has the worst possible effect on the metagame, it's not the end of the world.

#116 Howdy Doody

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:09 PM

View PostSephlock, on 28 June 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

As it is, I've started to lean away from that philosophy in my mech designs- there are too many times when you can round a corner into a firing squad, and having a dozen more tons of weapons and/or ammo is not going to save you- but being able to run the **** away will.

Likewise, speed can turn an agonizingly boring map like Alpine or (to a lesser extent) Tourmaline- where it is actually possible to go the full 15 minutes without ever firing a shot or even seeing an enemy, into something manageable.

I think the net effect will be good, but we'll have to see... I can forsee a lot of complaining about LRM users on or behind ridges (although the LRM whiners will find some reason to complain regardless), and I don't see anything wrong with encouraging more fights like this:




I can see this point of view. I also think there will be some painful weeks before folks realize you need to change. There will be some fights like the vid, but there will also be mediums running up hills pot shottin assults. Scouts will be needed for the LRM boats so that will give them something to do instead of grabbing points.

And if your an assault you may need to leave a PPC or guass at home to get a bigger engine.

I love the change "on paper", but proof will be in game.

#117 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:15 PM

View PostCaviel, on 27 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:


Eh, I see it adding badly needed value to Light and Medium mech mobility, and massively decreasing Heavy and Assault mobility. I don't see it having an effect on combat effectiveness otherwise.

View PostCaviel, on 27 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:


Eh, I see it adding badly needed value to Light and Medium mech mobility, and massively decreasing Heavy and Assault mobility. I don't see it having an effect on combat effectiveness otherwise.


So youre saying that mobility has nothing to do with combat effectiveness?

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#118 Sephlock

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:18 PM

^ AT the very least, soon, very soon.... my Gaussraven will have its day!

#119 keith

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:21 PM

View PostTwisted Power, on 28 June 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

My highlander will not be affected. JJ for the win.


see if your highlander can jump up most of the ridges on alpine? i bet its a no. even a heavy metal with 5 can't. the JJs need a huge overhaul with this game changer. i'm gonna guess as soon as u touch that hill get 0 u are going to fall down. even if they make u stay on the hilll u will be such a huge target y would u.

#120 Jman5

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:27 PM

One of the consequences people will need to adjust for is that base capturing will be easier.
  • It's harder to beeline back to base because you will have to follow winding paths instead of going straight over mountains.
  • Many scouting perches are now inaccessible
  • The changes to terrain will mean teams will be more committed toward a single divergent path instead of sitting on some ridge in between the two. Teams that don't bother to scout (aka 90% of games) will risk getting completely sideswiped.
Alpine, Forest Colony, Tourmaline, and Canyon will be much easier for a capping team.





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