197 replies to this topic

[RussianWolf]

I rarely run one of the OP FOTM builds (right now I'm running a stock Dragon 5N(c) and my Flame and Fang with similar load outs). I have to agree with the OP. As has been stated many times, An AC20 shouldn't fit where a machine gun was originally.

Hardpoints need to have size limits similar to the way MW4 did it and MWTactics currently does it. It would broaden the game dynamics by broadening the range of viable builds since the one shot warriors (dual AC20, dual gauss, quad+ PPC) wouldn't be possible.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

actually, if you read the post, it does NOT ignore it. It acknowledges it.

Having to wait .5 seconds between loosing volleys of 2-3 PPC hardly nerfs it, and the "damage threshold" is too high (over 150%) and mechs cool off too fast for this to be too severe a nerf. (especially since without RnR, blowing up to core out that mech and help the team get the win is only a big deal if you are a twitch shooter worried about his KDr like the Quimstar people I got stuck dropping with last night) All that will change is we get hit with 2 volleys of 3 PPC a half second apart.

Minimal fix at best.

Since you don't actually know the full resulting changes yet, you haven't acknowledged anything yet. Minimal fix perhaps, but again....should arrive well before Oct 15th, allowing us to see if it fixes the problematic meta or doesn't.

[Angel of Annihilation]

People also keep forgetting about heat. Sure you might be able to alpha 6 PPCs but your likely going to shut down after every shot leaving you vulnerable to the enemy. Also even after you recover from the shutdown, your still going to have to take the time to pretty much bleed off all your excess heat or risk going to immediate explosion.

Remember, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

[hammerreborn]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

still doesn't encourage role and chassis diversity, which still leaves the introduction of additional chassis largely worthless.

And addressing the issue NOW, before they have 100 chassis that are broken makes a hell of a lot more sense than later. Again, the Heat Cap, like Convergence is only PART of the solution, of which Hard Point sizes is also a part, but the Hard Point addresses more in one change. I would also note in one of the ask the Devs (ok, bad memory, could have been a Bryan/Garth twitter comment too) they said that hard point sizes were at least a consideration, which means it is more likely on the table than the heat cap which they have flat out crushed the idea of, pretty much every mention.

How so? Right now everyone runs the stalker because its the best boat, period. And the battlemaster now looks like it'll even beat that.

If 3 PPCS + guass becomes the new snipe meta because 4 PPCs becomes untenable due to the heat cap nerf, or even 3 PPCs, nearly every mech above a light (hell, even a Jenner can run 3 PPCs) and not a dedicated ballistic or missile mech can now run the "meta". I think that's far more diverse than stalker/highlander we have now.

Hardpoints also narrow the limits. People are always going to be dead set on these ppcs + guass builds. So now instead of using cataphracts, highlanders, atlas, catapults and jagers to some extent, and probably a few others I can't list off the top of my head, we now all just run Awesome 8Qs....or a misery. Maybe one highlander and an Atlas.

Wow, lots of diversity there.

[Adridos]

Viktor Drake, on 28 June 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

People also keep forgetting about heat. Sure you might be able to alpha 6 PPCs but your likely going to shut down after every shot leaving you vulnerable to the enemy. Also even after you recover from the shutdown, your still going to have to take the time to pretty much bleed off all your excess heat or risk going to immediate explosion.

Coolant flush module.

Doesn't matter if you get into the situation you desribe after downing two enemy mechs already.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 28 June 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

People also keep forgetting about heat. Sure you might be able to alpha 6 PPCs but your likely going to shut down after every shot leaving you vulnerable to the enemy. Also even after you recover from the shutdown, your still going to have to take the time to pretty much bleed off all your excess heat or risk going to immediate explosion.

Remember, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

they already do shut down every other shot. But when you are 1500 meters across the board and have 3-7 other guys with the same build covering you, you can afford that luxury.

[Zyllos]

Even more restrictive hardpoint limits will not solve the problem 100%. But I agree that hardpoint changes need to be implemented for various reasons (to add more diversity and usefulness to specific variants and mechs).

But a system to limit the amount of 100% accurate shots also need to be implemented to keep specific mechs from becoming just the go-to mech due to just meta-gaming the selection that is available.

Tonnage limits will need to be introduced in some way (either by individual player or team) to bring more emphasis on Medium/Light mechs.

Edited by Zyllos, 28 June 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

l

hammerreborn, on 28 June 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

How so? Right now everyone runs the stalker because its the best boat, period. And the battlemaster now looks like it'll even beat that.

If 3 PPCS + guass becomes the new snipe meta because 4 PPCs becomes untenable due to the heat cap nerf, or even 3 PPCs, nearly every mech above a light (hell, even a Jenner can run 3 PPCs) and not a dedicated ballistic or missile mech can now run the "meta". I think that's far more diverse than stalker/highlander we have now.

Hardpoints also narrow the limits. People are always going to be dead set on these ppcs + guass builds. So now instead of using cataphracts, highlanders, atlas, catapults and jagers to some extent, and probably a few others I can't list off the top of my head, we now all just run Awesome 8Qs....or a misery. Maybe one highlander and an Atlas.

Wow, lots of diversity there.

lolz.

I forgot you are the smartest guy on the forums.

Except that you are wrong. You will always shave Metarapers, but when the numbers are reduced because they no longer have the one, single uber-chassis, the multitudes of players who would like to play diverse and more balanced builds will be able to because that alpha is no longer required to simply have a chance of survival like it is now.

and yes, when one isn't insta cored at 1500 meters by 6 PPC, running a Stalker with 4 Mediums, 2 PPCs and whatever mix of missiles are preferred (since on must not view the meta as static.... aka SRMs are not likely to always suck just because they do right now) is entirely doable, and actually preferable, as now you can actually deal with that JagerBomb (or whatever replaces it when Jagers can't carry 2 AC20 anymore.....which btw, I have no issue with using, but no issue with nerfing, either) or Scout that got real close that your PPCs either were too close to hurt effectively, or too hot to use.

[Raso]

Bagheera, on 28 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

I'm waiting to see what the new climbing movement models do to peek-tarting.

At best we see PPC Sniper Warriors Online move into different parts of the battlefields. At worst we see far more AC40 JAgers running around. Either way I don't see this fixing Alpha Warriors Online but only time will tell.

[BadWolf81]

I would love to see this happen but last time I posted something like this I got flamed hard in the forums. Its only how every other MW game ever has worked.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zyllos, on 28 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Even more restrictive hardpoint limits will not solve the problem 100%. But I agree that hardpoint changes need to be implemented for various reasons (to add more diversity and usefulness to specific variants and mechs).

But a system to limit the amount of 100% accurate shots also need to be implemented to keep specific mechs from becoming just the go-to mech due to just meta-gaming the selection that is available.

Tonnage limits will need to be introduced in some way (either by individual player or team) to bring more emphasis on Medium/Light mechs.

agreed.


Matchmaker needs to work better to give reason for the other weight classes... Mediums are the odd duck out, when they SHOULD be the most common. Tonnage limits may hopefully become part of the contracts in CW? (one can hop and dream, right?)

But there is no one single solution, and that seems to be what people are not understanding. I am not saying Hard Points is the single solution to everything that ails MW:O. Convergence still needs to be addressed, as does heat. Individual weapons need to be better balanced to promote their usefulness.

That said, sized hardpoints are also needed. And the POINT of this thread its the placement of the lasers on the BLR-1G amply demonstrate that need. It doesn't specifically demonstrate heat, matchmaker, etc, AND THERE ARE OTHER POSTS ALREADY ADDRESSING THOSE. (hint, hint).

It's absolutely stupid, that a mech like the BLR which is obviously intended to mount the light weapons in the torso, the heavy in the arm (hence there being there) will instead end up with a ton of jumbo heavy weapons in the torso, and a light, if any in the arm.

But since I am no twitch shooter or self proclaimed "pro-gamer" I guess I should realize that things liek that don't matter.

(Hey, why bother calling it Mechwarrior at all.. let's just call it GenericTwitchMechshoote: Online, since for the FPS crowd none of the actual point of the chassis matter, and in fact the fact the stock builds PUT THE WEAPONS WHERE THEY BELONG starts a QQ thread with every new mech introduced.)

[hammerreborn]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

l
lolz.

I forgot you are the smartest guy on the forums.

Except that you are wrong. You will always shave Metarapers, but when the numbers are reduced because they no longer have the one, single uber-chassis, the multitudes of players who would like to play diverse and more balanced builds will be able to because that alpha is no longer required to simply have a chance of survival like it is now.

and yes, when one isn't insta cored at 1500 meters by 6 PPC, running a Stalker with 4 Mediums, 2 PPCs and whatever mix of missiles are preferred (since on must not view the meta as static.... aka SRMs are not likely to always suck just because they do right now) is entirely doable, and actually preferable, as now you can actually deal with that JagerBomb (or whatever replaces it when Jagers can't carry 2 AC20 anymore.....which btw, I have no issue with using, but no issue with nerfing, either) or Scout that got real close that your PPCs either were too close to hurt effectively, or too hot to use.

Nearly the entire playerbase is running in the ppc snipe meta. Do you honestly think that by making it so that the awesome is the only PPC boat that they are really going to go "nah, PPCs aren't that great anymore, I'm going small pulse laser"? You just switch the boat mech, but you keep the boating.

And I never said I'm smart, but I do have a question for you.


Clans. What do you do about them? Omnihardpoints pretty much throws your ideas out the window.

The heat cap solution still works though.

BadWolf81, on 28 June 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

I would love to see this happen but last time I posted something like this I got flamed hard in the forums. Its only how every other MW game ever has worked.

Uhh...no? I distinctly remember being able to throw 120 lrms in mw3 on my vulture. MW2 you could have a bazillion machine guns as far as i'm aware, and all the mech assaults used stock loadouts. So only really mw4 used hardpoints.

Edited by hammerreborn, 28 June 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Praehotec8]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

My alternate solution would be to allow a large weapon in a small hardpoint... IF there were multiple small hardpoints in that location. It would simply use 2 such hardpoints up, forcing one to decide if 2 large weapons are worth the trade-off for 4 smaller ones.

also, (IMO) makes a hellofalot more sense than saying "Hey, cramming this 14 ton/10 Crit AC20 into a machine gun slot is doable...it'll just make you run a little hotter......"

I actually thought of this before as well and it makes a lot of sense. However, I don't think it by itself would discourage PPC boating, etc. Why take 4 SL or ML when you can have 2 PPCs? Right now a number of mechs could take multiple smaller but don't. I think this could be balanced by careful placement of hardpopints (would have to look at all the hardpoints on each mech and balance them so most mechs couldn't abuse the system), OR, by combining the systems (i.e. if you DO substitute a large weapon for 2 small, there is a heat/crit/weight penalty for doing so).

More than anything though hardpoint limits would potentially add diversity just by giving different mechs more flavor. It's important though that the customization aspect remain flexible and robust, as it's very fun, and a big draw for many people.

[Marauder3D]

Completely agree with the OP. Mw4 and MW:LL worked because boating was constrained by hardpoints. Even if people complained like mad, it would be a vast improvement to the meta game.

[hammerreborn]

Marauder3D, on 28 June 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Completely agree with the OP. Mw4 and MW:LL worked because boating was constrained by hardpoints. Even if people complained like mad, it would be a vast improvement to the meta game.

LL had stock loadouts and no customization at all >.>

And for all the complaints about how MW4 was a poptart snipefest and that they distinctly didnt want to happen to this game I don't think using MW4 as a pinnacle of success really helps your point.

I put 5 light guass rifles in a daishi (though it may have been 2 guass + 3 lights, all I remember was that there was 5, it killed everything in basically 1 hit, but I had the smallest engine in the game and 14 armor). It was awesome. I would just hill hump and kill everything while sitting on my flag until some light more or less instagibbed me from behind.

Edited by hammerreborn, 28 June 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Praehotec8, on 28 June 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I actually thought of this before as well and it makes a lot of sense. However, I don't think it by itself would discourage PPC boating, etc. Why take 4 SL or ML when you can have 2 PPCs? Right now a number of mechs could take multiple smaller but don't. I think this could be balanced by careful placement of hardpopints (would have to look at all the hardpoints on each mech and balance them so most mechs couldn't abuse the system), OR, by combining the systems (i.e. if you DO substitute a large weapon for 2 small, there is a heat/crit/weight penalty for doing so).

More than anything though hardpoint limits would potentially add diversity just by giving different mechs more flavor. It's important though that the customization aspect remain flexible and robust, as it's very fun, and a big draw for many people.

There are always tradeoffs. Those large guns are heavier, but with pinpoint convergence, focused damage and range, usually worth it. As stated, Hard Points are just one of several things needed to be addressed. BUt for some mechs, trading the ability to carry 6 Medium Pulse lasers, to instead use 2 ER PPC (assuming 3 slots per torso like the BLR-1G, or Jenner-Ks arms) might not be worth it... especially when the meta is no longer 6 ppc stalkers. I know when fightling lights, I sure prefer multiple small weapons for quick cycle shot times to compensate for potential misses. I can and have killed lights with 2 AC/20 or PPC, but it sure the heck is a chore compared to nailing them with multiple mediums and streaks (not to mention hard to avoid overheating or burning thru ammo that I end up wishing i had later).

That said, unlike some of our "betters"on here, I don't proclaim Hard Points as the one true fix. Just part of a bigger puzzle needed to fix and improve this game.

[Sug]

hammerreborn, on 28 June 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

So now instead of using cataphracts, highlanders, atlas, catapults and jagers to some extent, and probably a few others I can't list off the top of my head, we now all just run Awesome 8Qs

Lol please do. Making the Awesome the only viable PPC boat would actually balance PPC boats.

[Marauder3D]

hammerreborn, on 28 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

LL had stock loadouts and no customization at all >.>

And for all the complaints about how MW4 was a poptart snipefest and that they distinctly didnt want to happen to this game I don't think using MW4 as a pinnacle of success really helps your point.

I put 5 light guass rifles in a daishi. It was awesome.

My point exactly. You put 5 LGR in an OmniMech. These are Battlemechs. They shouldn't have Omni hardpoints. And the lack of lab is what was great about LL. Taking a Vulture B out meant you were a Muncher that would be targeted by the whole field.

[Sug]

Marauder3D, on 28 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

My point exactly. You put 5 LGR in an OmniMech. These are Battlemechs. They shouldn't have Omni hardpoints. .

I know it's completely impossible unless I win the lotto and buy PGI but removing customization would be great.

[Bishop Steiner]

hammerreborn, on 28 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

LL had stock loadouts and no customization at all >.>

And for all the complaints about how MW4 was a poptart snipefest and that they distinctly didnt want to happen to this game I don't think using MW4 as a pinnacle of success really helps your point.

I put 5 light guass rifles in a daishi (though it may have been 2 guass + 3 lights, all I remember was that there was 5, it killed everything in basically 1 hit, but I had the smallest engine in the game and 14 armor). It was awesome. I would just hill hump and kill everything while sitting on my flag until some light more or less instagibbed me from behind.

so you had a mech with 60 tons of Gauss rifles, (doing an MWO equivalent of 45 pt) meaing you had either no engine, no armor, or no ammo, or minimals of all the above.

congrats.

of course, since omnis to be done remotely intelligently should not be able to modify structure, armor engines or base heatsinks (the weapons loadout pods are omni, not the chassis, and warriors don't wown and can't refit the whol emech in the Clans)

you have 50.5 tons to work with..... still scary but 9.5 short to mount 5 of Any type of gauss.... let alone ammo. Am guessing this was Mekteks broken excuse for MW4?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 June 2013 - 12:59 PM.