197 replies to this topic

[Nunspa]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

FTFY

if you want smartassery, guess it's better than dumbassery.

Nice attempt at deflecting... bravo...

Except I was not the one who started with the comments.. I was trying to play Devils Advocate.

Part of the game is customization.. if we use sized hard points it has to allow more then a "side ways" upgrade....

"Oh look I can go ML or MPluse or ERML! well i can always go small"

that's too much of a nerf.... I want to see how the boating penalty works out before I throw the baby out with the bath water.

Oh, and I have seen plenty of ERPPC stalkers get ripped to hell by teamwork... they can't turn to save their lives, in a one on one I have taken them down in my Illa... for the simple reason I can stay behind them most of the time.

I do think the boating is a little out of hand.. but I rather see some options that don't kill customization

Edited by Nunspa, 28 June 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Waking One]

Nunspa, on 28 June 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Nice attempt at deflecting... bravo...

Except I was not the one who started with the comments.. I was trying to play Devils Advocate.

Part of the game is customization.. if we use sized hard points it has to allow more then a "side ways" upgrade....

"Oh look I can go ML or MPluse or ERML! well i can always go small"

that's too much of a nerf.... I want to see how the boating penalty works out before I throw the baby out with the bath water.

Oh, and I have seen plenty of ERPPC stalkers get ripped to hell by teamwork... they can't turn to save their lives, in a one on one I have taken them down in my Illa... for the simple reason I can stay behind them most of the time.

I do think the boating is a little out of hand.. but I rather see some options that don't kill customization

hardpoint sizes would make variants and mechs actually different besides the hitboxes

it would only make the game more varied, and you could even make 'worse' variants better by making the hardpoints on them bigger making them desirable again

it's a win/win

[Bishop Steiner]

Actually, my initial post to you reflected the attitude of your post. If you don't want someone to act such, consider how you phrase things yourself.

Regardless, I disagree with your post. And find your reasoning flawed. My reasons why were well documented, if you have trouble getting past one line in reply to your own attitude, I don't know what to tell you.

[Nunspa]

Waking One, on 28 June 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

hardpoint sizes would make variants and mechs actually different besides the hitboxes

it would only make the game more varied, and you could even make 'worse' variants better by making the hardpoints on them bigger making them desirable again

it's a win/win

lets take a look at an example.. the DDC

You would never be able to upgrade the energy past MLaz, in turn what are you going to do? make the AC/20 a Guass and call it a day? and the Missle Hardpoints... you will basically stay the same.

With sized hard points the most you can do is save tonnage and get a larger engine or more heat sinks?

the K2? ends up staying the way it is.. just ERPPC upgrade and MedLaz may be come Pulse or something.. MGs? unless I can make then AC/2's I would just drop them and maybe add ammo for my AMS..

Seems way too limited in what I can do.

Edited by Nunspa, 28 June 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nunspa, on 28 June 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

lets take a look at an example.. the DDC

You would never be able to upgrade the energy past MLaz, in turn what are you going to do? make the AC/20 a Guass and call it a day? and the Missle Hardpoints... you will basically stay the same.

With sized hard points the most you can do is save tonnage and get a larger engine or more heat sinks?

the K2? ends up staying the way it is.. just ERPPC upgrade and MedLaz may be come Pulse or something.. MGs? unless I can make then AC/2's I would just drop them and maybe add ammo for my AMS..

Seems way too limited in what I can do.

and so you use a chassis using those heavier weapons in the first place if you want them. Hence the idea "chassis diversity".
Taking a Heavy Energy Mech, and turning it into a ballistic boat (K2 to gaussapult) is not needed when there are already ballistic boats like the Jager or Phract.

Instead of every mech simply becoming a cookie cutter of a single type of build.

[Nunspa]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

and so you use a chassis using those heavier weapons in the first place if you want them. Hence the idea "chassis diversity".
Taking a Heavy Energy Mech, and turning it into a ballistic boat (K2 to gaussapult) is not needed when there are already ballistic boats like the Jager or Phract.

Instead of every mech simply becoming a cookie cutter of a single type of build.

So why even have any customization at all?

just to have double heat sink/endo/engine upgrades and call it a day?

what you proposed in essence kills any meaningful customization.

[Ialdabaoth]

Yep. Definitely need hard point restrictions.

I think an ideal solution would be the following:

Energy Weapons
Any configuration which has a Small Laser or Small Pulse Laser in its default configuration has a Small Energy Hardpoint. A Small Energy Hardpoint can mount any energy weapon that fits into 1 space.

Any configuration which has a Medium Laser or Medium Pulse Laser in its default configuration has a Medium Energy Hardpoint. A Medium Energy Hardpoint can mount any energy weapon that fits into 2 spaces.

Any configuration which has a Large Laser, ER Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser, PPC, or ER PPC in its default configuration has a Large Energy Hardpoint. A Large Energy Hardpoint can mount any energy weapon.

Ballistic Weapons
Any configuration which has a Machinegun in its default configuration has a Small Ballistic Hardpoint. A Small Ballistic Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon that fits into 3 spaces.

Any configuration which has an AC/2, AC/5, or Ultra AC/5 in its default configuration has a Medium Ballistic Hardpoint. A Medium Ballistic Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon that fits into 7 spaces.


Any configuration which has an AC/10, LB-10X, or AC/20 in its default configuration has a Large Ballistic Hardpoint. A Large Ballistic Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon.


Missile Weapons

Any configuration which has an SRM-2, Streak SRM-2, SRM-4 or LRM-5 in its default configuration has a Small Missile Hardpoint. A Small Missile Hardpoint can mount any missile weapon that fits into 2 spaces.

Any configuration which has an SRM-6, LRM-10, or Narc launcher in its default configuration has a Medium Missile Hardpoint. A Medium Missile Hardpoint can mount any missile weapon that fits into 4 spaces.


Any configuration which has an LRM-15 or LRM-20 in its default configuration has a Large Missile Hardpoint. A Large Missile Hardpoint can mount any missile weapon.

That way, you are never locked into "sidegrade"-only; you can always upgrade weapons to the next size bigger, but not two or more sizes bigger. I.e., a Machinegun could become an AC/2 but not an AC/5; a Medium Laser could become a Large Laser but not a PPC.


Note that several 'mechs have more hard points than weapons. This is always to allow "splitting" - for example, an Awesome 8Q has 3 PPCs, but each PPC location actually has two hard points. In such situations, the 'extra' hard points should always be one size *smaller* than the actual weapon - so the Awesome 8Q would have 3 Large Energy Hardpoints, and 3 Medium Energy Hardpoints, allowing it to boat 6 Large Lasers but only 3 PPC's. The Catapult A1 has an LRM-15 in each arm; thus, each arm has one Large Missile Hardpoint and two Medium Missile Hardpoints.

(Also note that this returns the Awesome-8Q to its original role as the only 'mech *designed* to PPC-boat.)

Edited by Ialdabaoth, 28 June 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Nunspa]

again lets look at the D-DC
Stock Armament
RT: 1 Autocannon 20 = 1 Large Ballistic
LT: 1 LRM 20/1 SRM 6 = 2 Large Missle? or would the SRM6 be a Med Missile?
LA: 1 Medium Laser = 1 Med Energy
RA: 1 Medium Laser = 1 Med Energy

you can't do much here, except swap the AC/20 for a Gauss or a smaller Ballistic (why?) and maybe go with two SRMs? the Laz.. you can go paulse or small laz...

feels like you should just stay stalk once you swap out to DHS and a new Engine

Ialdabaoth, on 28 June 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Yep. Definitely need hard point restrictions.

I think an ideal solution would be the following:

Energy Weapons
Any configuration which has a Small Laser or Small Pulse Laser in its default configuration has a Small Energy Hardpoint. A Small Energy Hardpoint can mount any energy weapon that fits into 1 space.

Any configuration which has a Medium Laser or Medium Pulse Laser in its default configuration has a Medium Energy Hardpoint. A Medium Energy Hardpoint can mount any energy weapon that fits into 2 spaces.

Any configuration which has a Large Laser, ER Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser, PPC, or ER PPC in its default configuration has a Large Energy Hardpoint. A Large Energy Hardpoint can mount any energy weapon.

Ballistic Weapons
Any configuration which has a Machinegun in its default configuration has a Small Ballistic Hardpoint. A Small Ballistic Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon that fits into 3 spaces.

Any configuration which has an AC/2, AC/5, or Ultra AC/5 in its default configuration has a Medium Ballistic Hardpoint. A Medium Ballistic Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon that fits into 7 spaces.


Any configuration which has an AC/10, LB-10X, or AC/20 in its default configuration has a Large Ballistic Hardpoint. A Large Ballistic Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon.


Missile Weapons

Any configuration which has an SRM-2, Streak SRM-2, SRM-4 or LRM-5 in its default configuration has a Small Missile Hardpoint. A Small Missile Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon that fits into 2 spaces.

Any configuration which has an SRM-6, LRM-10, or Narc launcher in its default configuration has a Medium Missile Hardpoint. A Medium Missile Hardpoint can mount any ballistic weapon that fits into 4 spaces.


Any configuration which has an LRM-15 or LRM-20 in its default configuration has a Large Missile Hardpoint. A Large Missile Hardpoint can mount any missile weapon.

That way, you are never locked into "sidegrade"-only; you can always upgrade weapons to the next size bigger, but not two or more sizes bigger. I.e., a Machinegun could become an AC/2 but not an AC/5; a Medium Laser could become a Large Laser but not a PPC.

Ok THAT (the above) I can go with, still allows for some work (MedLaz being up'd to LargeLaz for example.)

[Sephlock]

1: This won't unseat the stalker

2: 6x PPCs is hideously impractical- even with coolant flushes, it's inefficient enough to scare anyone off...

3: Please don't poop on my ability to do this:

[Skadi]

Look, this mech is THREE months out, that gives them plenty of time to address the ppc issue, and all current meta "problems" I don't think we should be going on about a mechs hardpoint allocations and how they will make the meta worse on a mech that isn't out yet, especialy when its release date is as distant as it is.

Also as far as meta is concerned this is a bad stalker.

Edited by Skadi, 28 June 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[FupDup]

Sephlock, on 28 June 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

3: Please don't poop on my ability to do this:

PGI already has boating penalties planned for that (at least for PPCs). You'll have to use 6 ML or LL for your breast-laser attack.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nunspa, on 28 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

So why even have any customization at all?

just to have double heat sink/endo/engine upgrades and call it a day?

what you proposed in essence kills any meaningful customization.

it allows plenty of customization.

What it doesn't allow is people to change and apple into an orange.

And I already addressed a possible upgrade, where it could be done by using TWO small hardpoints to make a Large. At least then you have to give up SOMETHING to Metarape, and yes, I am aware that not all mechs have the extra hardpoints.

Solution? Choose a different chassis.

But hey, cherry pick what you want.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 June 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Waking One]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

it allows plenty of customization.

What it doesn't allow is people to change and apple into an orange.

And I already addressed a possible upgrade, where it could be done by using TWO small hardpoints to make a Large. At least then you have to give up SOMETHING to Metarape, and yes, I am aware that not all mechs have the extra hardpoints.

Solution? Choose a different chassis.

But hey, cherry pick what you want.

This. Besides, the DDC has ECM which is it's bonus, the others get more weapon choice. And the DDC already doesn't have particularly varied fits.

Or just increase the hardpoint sizes of the arm energy hardpoints to 2, or do just about anything. It doesn't have to be set in stone, and you can work it to make variants truly different.

[Ialdabaoth]

Nunspa, on 28 June 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

again lets look at the D-DC
Stock Armament
RT: 1 Autocannon 20 = 1 Large Ballistic
LT: 1 LRM 20/1 SRM 6 = 2 Large Missle? or would the SRM6 be a Med Missile?
LA: 1 Medium Laser = 1 Med Energy
RA: 1 Medium Laser = 1 Med Energy

you can't do much here, except swap the AC/20 for a Gauss or a smaller Ballistic (why?) and maybe go with two SRMs? the Laz.. you can go paulse or small laz...

Well, note that a Med Energy HP lets you mount up to a Large Laser. Also note that the Atlas-DC has two ballistic hardpoints in its chest; since it normally just mounts an AC-20, one of these hardpoints would be Large and the other would be Medium. Likewise, the LRM-20 would become one Large missile hardpoint and one Medium missile hardpoint.

This means you have several options: you can upgrade the arm lasers to Large Lasers, ER Large Lasers, or Large Pulse Lasers, but can't upgrade them to PPCs or ER PPCs. You can replace the AC-20 with a Gauss Rifle or two UAC/5's. You can replace the LRM-20 with two SRM-6's (each of which can mount Artemis), or with two LRM-15's. You can also upgrade the SRM-6 to an LRM-15.

So there's still a LOT of potential customization.

In fact, the only thing it really cuts down on is PPC boating.

A *few* 'mechs would have to have explicitly specified hardpoints, of course - probably the Jagermech 6S and DD would need their arms explicitly specified as 1 heavy and 1 medium ballistic each (or 1 heavy and 2 medium for the DD), so that they can still mount dual AC/20's. Perhaps the Blackjack-1 as well.

[Carrioncrows]

No.

[Ialdabaoth]

Carrioncrows, on 28 June 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

No.

Thank you for your time.

[Sybreed]

Ialdabaoth, on 28 June 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, note that a Med Energy HP lets you mount up to a Large Laser. Also note that the Atlas-DC has two ballistic hardpoints in its chest; since it normally just mounts an AC-20, one of these hardpoints would be Large and the other would be Medium. Likewise, the LRM-20 would become one Large missile hardpoint and one Medium missile hardpoint.

This means you have several options: you can upgrade the arm lasers to Large Lasers, ER Large Lasers, or Large Pulse Lasers, but can't upgrade them to PPCs or ER PPCs. You can replace the AC-20 with a Gauss Rifle or two UAC/5's. You can replace the LRM-20 with two SRM-6's (each of which can mount Artemis), or with two LRM-15's. You can also upgrade the SRM-6 to an LRM-15.

So there's still a LOT of potential customization.

In fact, the only thing it really cuts down on is PPC boating.

A *few* 'mechs would have to have explicitly specified hardpoints, of course - probably the Jagermech 6S and DD would need their arms explicitly specified as 1 heavy and 1 medium ballistic each (or 1 heavy and 2 medium for the DD), so that they can still mount dual AC/20's. Perhaps the Blackjack-1 as well.

if it cuts down pinpoint boating it would already be mission accomplished.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ialdabaoth, on 28 June 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, note that a Med Energy HP lets you mount up to a Large Laser. Also note that the Atlas-DC has two ballistic hardpoints in its chest; since it normally just mounts an AC-20, one of these hardpoints would be Large and the other would be Medium. Likewise, the LRM-20 would become one Large missile hardpoint and one Medium missile hardpoint.

This means you have several options: you can upgrade the arm lasers to Large Lasers, ER Large Lasers, or Large Pulse Lasers, but can't upgrade them to PPCs or ER PPCs. You can replace the AC-20 with a Gauss Rifle or two UAC/5's. You can replace the LRM-20 with two SRM-6's (each of which can mount Artemis), or with two LRM-15's. You can also upgrade the SRM-6 to an LRM-15.

So there's still a LOT of potential customization.

In fact, the only thing it really cuts down on is PPC boating.

A *few* 'mechs would have to have explicitly specified hardpoints, of course - probably the Jagermech 6S and DD would need their arms explicitly specified as 1 heavy and 1 medium ballistic each (or 1 heavy and 2 medium for the DD), so that they can still mount dual AC/20's. Perhaps the Blackjack-1 as well.

while I use the AC40, and due to it's all or nothing approach hardly consider it OP (The number of 4+ kill matches I get are readily balanced by the times I catch 6 PPC to my grill), why does it "NEED" to be able to be built? There are no canon builds remotely close? (Mind you, my suggestion of being able to convert 2 small into one large would allow it also, but this is me playing devils advocate) The Role of the Jager is long range fire support vehicle. If they couldn't mount Dual AC/20 wouldn't that possibly help make short range units like the Hunchback more viable again?

[Ialdabaoth]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

while I use the AC40, and due to it's all or nothing approach hardly consider it OP (The number of 4+ kill matches I get are readily balanced by the times I catch 6 PPC to my grill), why does it "NEED" to be able to be built? There are no canon builds remotely close? (Mind you, my suggestion of being able to convert 2 small into one large would allow it also, but this is me playing devils advocate) The Role of the Jager is long range fire support vehicle. If they couldn't mount Dual AC/20 wouldn't that possibly help make short range units like the Hunchback more viable again?

This is a good point. Although I feel like something needs to fill the hole in my heart where the King Crab should be.

[Gaan Cathal]

Waking One, on 28 June 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

it would only make the game more lessvaried

Fixed that for you. Currently the Stalker is the best mech at boating 4 PPCs. Stop it doing so, and you'll see a preponderance of quad-PPC AS7-RS all of a sudden and the Stalker, lacking the ability to load a convincing arsenal will go extinct. At the moment either a Stalker or an -RS can pull the quad-PPC thing. After this 'fix' only the RS would out of the two. That's a reduction in diversity. People won't use mechs an update makes **** because they think they look pretty. They'll just get mothballed.