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Blr-1G Art Looks Great, Demonstrates Need For "sized" Hardpoints


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#121 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:49 PM

View PostIaldabaoth, on 28 June 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:


This is a good point. Although I feel like something needs to fill the hole in my heart where the King Crab should be. :)

eventually there will probably be the King Crab. And this way, it will still have a role, whereas with the current meta, it would just have to be made into a PPC boat somehow......

#122 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:01 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

eventually there will probably be the King Crab. And this way, it will still have a role, whereas with the current meta, it would just have to be made into a PPC boat somehow......


Er...AC/40 with actual armour? Or dual-gauss with an (lets say one) ERPPC?

Drop King Crab in the game right now and it'd do just fine.

#123 Prezimonto

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:28 PM

I actually didn't even mind the highly simplified version found in the Mech commander titles, where you had a grid (think diablo style inventory) and it was different sizes and shapes for different mechs... if it wasn't tall enough you couldn't put a gauss on the thing, if you didn't have enough heatsinks you couldn't equip a given weapon.

I'm not suggesting that we do that here, this is a much more detailed game and a very different style, but even still that system made sense and it worked within the game.

Which is why I bring it up, I don't care how the system gets fixed, but it needs fixing. Perfect, instantaneous convergence at all times, very high heat capacities, and lack of hard point restrictions are all contributing to the high alpha meta. I really just want to have viable load outs other than high alpha.

To address "fixing" high heat capacities, I hesitate to suggest that as it's a pure burden on the new player who doesn't have double heat sinks. Until there's a reason to take single heat sinks, I don't know why they still exist. There is no down side to having them in any practical build, yet they're stock on nearly every mech. It's purely a 1.5M CB tax on being able to play well. And the die hards will all say... "so what, that's nothing". But to a new player it's 5 or more matches where you're just totally out classed and overheating. With the added heat penalties (damage for high heat shut downs) this will only become more pronounced. Unless they do something totally silly like allow singles to give you higher threshold and (a smaller CD) vs. a larger CD and lower threshold for doubles, I don't really want to see the massive heat penalties in the game.

ON that note, I wish there were honest choices in all the mech upgrades. (pro AND con) to each the way Artemis is set up.
No one runs without endo, it's stupid not to. 14 crit slots aren't a big deal. If you traded that tonnage against 10% less internal HP and 14 crit slots it would be a much more interesting choice. If FF didn't give tonnage but gave 10% higher armor cap at all hard points(and consequently you can pack more armor on, but it costs extra weight)(alternatively, give 10% more armor value and 10% less speed, lots of ways you can go) and had 14 crit slots, it would also be a much more interesting choice.

You'd then have a much harder decision in most mechs over what to take since most builds can't accommodate 28 spare crit slots: extra tonnage (more offense/less defense) or extra durability (more defense/slower). You'd also have to be willing to sacrifice something from the stock load outs(the most middle ground balanced choice). THIS would give a much broader range of load outs a more viable edge. It would help bring stock load outs back into viability. These upgrades currently have no real downside, when they SHOULD be very rare to find and ungodly expensive to maintain. I understand that RnR isn't coming back, but without it, there's no real balance without adding something like this to the upgrades.

Remember, if you can't get/don't want that tonnage from Endo and/or FF that's probably one less large item on your mech. Right now you just take it... it gives you spare space, you don't look back, ever.

As for convergence... there's tons of methods people have mentioned. My favorite is putting in the equivalent of a scope in time between perfect convergence and a "neutral" position where your torso weapons shoot forward at the width of your mech(arms converge without issue if you have all the actuators, otherwise they're treated as the torso weapons if you can't swing them side to side). When your mech is on the move, or changing ranges quickly your cross hair spreads a little and perhaps changes color. When you stop and aim for .5 or 1 second the cross hair collapses inward from "neutral" to "aimed" and you get the perfect convergence. This is not random spread, a truly excellent pilot would be able to account for the lack of convergence on the move by using single fire. It's the best compromise I've seen/can think of. It preserves the sniper role in the game, but gives it a much higher skill cap to be successful, and makes true snipers more susceptible to brawlers.

In the end, I don't care what they do, but things need fixing and more hard point restrictions are a good place to start.

Edited by Prezimonto, 28 June 2013 - 09:33 PM.


#124 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:


Er...AC/40 with actual armour? Or dual-gauss with an (lets say one) ERPPC?

Drop King Crab in the game right now and it'd do just fine.

AC40 that moves 48 kph. It would be OK,but hardly great (Support weapons on it are a joke, and tbh, the heatsink and ammo boosts needed for MWO limit what you could do). It would be BETTER if there weren't multiple chassis all capable of doing it.

Tis all I am saying

#125 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostPrezimonto, on 28 June 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

I actually didn't even mind the highly simplified version found in the Mech commander titles, where you had a grid (think diablo style inventory) and it was different sizes and shapes for different mechs... if it wasn't tall enough you couldn't put a gauss on the thing, if you didn't have enough heatsinks you couldn't equip a given weapon.

I'm not suggesting that we do that here, this is a much more detailed game and a very different style, but even still that system made sense and it worked within the game.

Which is why I bring it up, I don't care how the system gets fixed, but it needs fixing. Perfect, instantaneous convergence at all times, very high heat capacities, and lack of hard point restrictions are all contributing to the high alpha meta. I really just want to have viable load outs other than high alpha.

To address "fixing" high heat capacities, I hesitate to suggest that as it's a pure burden on the new player who doesn't have double heat sinks. Until there's a reason to take single heat sinks, I don't know why they still exist. There is no down side to having them in any practical build, yet they're stock on nearly every mech. It's purely a 1.5M CB tax on being able to play well. And the die hards will all say... "so what, that's nothing". But to a new player it's 5 or more matches where you're just totally out classed and overheating. With the added heat penalties (damage for high heat shut downs) this will only become more pronounced. Unless they do something totally silly like allow singles to give you higher threshold and (a smaller CD) vs. a larger CD and lower threshold for doubles, I don't really want to see the massive heat penalties in the game.

ON that note, I wish there were honest choices in all the mech upgrades. (pro AND con) to each the way Artemis is set up.
No one runs without endo, it's stupid not to. 14 crit slots aren't a big deal. If you traded that tonnage against 10% less internal HP and 14 crit slots it would be a much more interesting choice. If FF didn't give tonnage but gave 10% higher armor cap at all hard points(and consequently you can pack more armor on, but it costs extra weight)(alternatively, give 10% more armor value and 10% less speed, lots of ways you can go) and had 14 crit slots, it would also be a much more interesting choice.

You'd then have a much harder decision in most mechs over what to take since most builds can't accommodate 28 spare crit slots: extra tonnage (more offense/less defense) or extra durability (more defense/slower). You'd also have to be willing to sacrifice something from the stock load outs(the most middle ground balanced choice). THIS would give a much broader range of load outs a more viable edge. It would help bring stock load outs back into viability. These upgrades currently have no real downside, when they SHOULD be very rare to find and ungodly expensive to maintain. I understand that RnR isn't coming back, but without it, there's no real balance without adding something like this to the upgrades.

Remember, if you can't get/don't want that tonnage from Endo and/or FF that's probably one less large item on your mech. Right now you just take it... it gives you spare space, you don't look back, ever.

As for convergence... there's tons of methods people have mentioned. My favorite is putting in the equivalent of a scope in time between perfect convergence and a "neutral" position where your torso weapons shoot forward at the width of your mech(arms converge without issue if you have all the actuators, otherwise they're treated as the torso weapons if you can't swing them side to side). When your mech is on the move, or changing ranges quickly your cross hair spreads a little and perhaps changes color. When you stop and aim for .5 or 1 second the cross hair collapses inward from "neutral" to "aimed" and you get the perfect convergence. This is not random spread, a truly excellent pilot would be able to account for the lack of convergence on the move by using single fire. It's the best compromise I've seen/can think of. It preserves the sniper role in the game, but gives it a much higher skill cap to be successful, and makes true snipers more susceptible to brawlers.

In the end, I don't care what they do, but things need fixing and more hard point restrictions are a good place to start.

good stuff. I very much agree with the convergence part in particular.

#126 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

AC40 that moves 48 kph. It would be OK,but hardly great (Support weapons on it are a joke, and tbh, the heatsink and ammo boosts needed for MWO limit what you could do). It would be BETTER if there weren't multiple chassis all capable of doing it.


It goes at 54kph stock. If it XLs well you could push it to 64kph. Drop the LRM15 for SRM6 cos brawling frees up a bunch of tons. Use two of them on upping the LL to an LPL when they make it not ****. It'll break face pretty well, frankly. An AC/40 hit followed up with an LPL hit will total anything up to a heavy with very, very little risk.

The primary variant also lends itself to 2xGauss+ERPPC entertainment that won't care one bit about the incoming 'nerf' to alphabuilds. Never mind the possibility that one variant will come with two B hardpoints per arm and fit quad-UAC/5 (less actually effective than the AC/40 version but should be hilariously entertaining).

#127 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

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It goes at 54kph stock. If it XLs well you could push it to 64kph. Drop the LRM15 for SRM6 cos brawling frees up a bunch of tons. Use two of them on upping the LL to an LPL when they make it not ****. It'll break face pretty well, frankly. An AC/40 hit followed up with an LPL hit will total anything up to a heavy with very, very little risk.

The primary variant also lends itself to 2xGauss+ERPPC entertainment that won't care one bit about the incoming 'nerf' to alphabuilds. Never mind the possibility that one variant will come with two B hardpoints per arm and fit quad-UAC/5 (less actually effective than the AC/40 version but should be hilariously entertaining).

MWO 300 takes you 48, not 54.

XL is suicide in an Atlas, no way this thing has smaller side torsos. It can still work, but lik with the YLW, the AC40 hammer needs some degree of mobility to work.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 June 2013 - 09:38 PM.


#128 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:37 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

MWO 300 takes you 48, not 54.


You get correct speeds (within +/-1kph generally) once you Speed Tweak.

#129 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:44 PM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:


You get correct speeds (within +/-1kph generally) once you Speed Tweak.

true. I'm talking base chassis. Either way, not knocking the chassis, saying it's simply more interesting and viable if thee aren't 10 other mechs that can do it as well, or possibly better. (Of course, enough mechs get introduced, it will inevitably happen)

#130 Prezimonto

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:46 PM

I'm honestly surprised that more people don't recognize the effect of DHS/ENDO/FF with no real in game penalties. The stock load outs all work if those aren't freely available and/or have their own associated penalties.

XL engines could also use a slightly larger in game penalty (IMO) as they are totally necessary on all but a very small number of mechs to get "good" builds going. Hard point restrictions would greatly aide in balancing this out as most mechs wouldn't need that much extra tonnage to get viable(if nonoptimized) load outs.

Again, I don't care what they do, but I'd prefer to see the upgrades all be upgrades to something specific, in trade for something else. Artemis is a great example, it's great for LRM's, if you use 15's or 20's, or a single smaller perhaps. The extra weight though is a real beast to manage in some builds... so it's not a total "no-brainer" to upgrade to artemis and receive it's benefits.

Edited by Prezimonto, 28 June 2013 - 09:50 PM.


#131 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

I'd also say Endo should not be an option. It's the mech's bloody skeleton. Either it has ti from the factory, or it doesn't.

Common sense. Isn't.

#132 Ialdabaoth

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:31 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 28 June 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

I'd also say Endo should not be an option. It's the mech's bloody skeleton. Either it has ti from the factory, or it doesn't.

Common sense. Isn't.


Agreed. Although really, engine swaps should be possible; but clearly Endo Steel swaps shouldn't be.

#133 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:59 PM

View PostIaldabaoth, on 28 June 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:


Agreed. Although really, engine swaps should be possible; but clearly Endo Steel swaps shouldn't be.

Very true.

Have been saying one way (though it will take more than JUST this, funny how people harp on crap like you are recommending it as the one cure all, instead of realizing their is no "one" thing that will fix stuff) to "balance" the Clans is that OmniMechs should not be able to modify Engine, Structure, Armor or their "base" Heatsinks. Clanners don't own their mechs, hence extreme makeovers wont happen.

Of course, some, like the Timberwolf are pretty much perfect anyhow......

#134 Aim64C

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:13 PM

I'm not in favor of a strict sizing of hardpoints.

I'm more in favor of a MechWarrior 4 hardpoint system that extends into a second dimension (rather than a Gauss Rifle taking up 3 slots, it would take up 3x2, or something).

This would give the ability to allow, say, 3 medium lasers to be mounted without allowing for a PPC (because parts could not be rotated). Or a single PPC and a medium laser (or two) without allowing for 2 large lasers.

You could preserve mech personality while still giving plenty of customization options - particularly if they adopt direct-fire slots that allow for ballistic or energy weapons to be fitted to them.

#135 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:20 PM

View PostIaldabaoth, on 28 June 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Agreed. Although really, engine swaps should be possible; but clearly Endo Steel swaps shouldn't be.



The problem with this is that whilst it makes all kinds of logical sense, being unable to apply such a fundamental upgrade to certain mechs more or less renders them obsolete. Sure it's very characterful for a TT board game to have obsolete technology since they can compensate with BV and the power creep means more product sold, but it's a spectacularly bad idea for a computer game of this sort.

#136 Sug

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:25 AM

[color="#959595"]Damn dos attacks. [/color]

#137 Otto Cannon

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:51 AM

I personally feel there are two issues here.

To address the pinpoint alpha instagib all we need to have is a well implemented non-random convergence fix like the one described in DocBach's thread.
It would solve the problem now, and it would stay solved after the clans arrive. It's the only method which would do this.
Boating (as in canon) would still be possible but wouldn't be a problem any more.

The other issue is whether we should restrict hardpoints on IS mechs. Some people clearly like the idea to make each chassis have to play a certain way, on the other hand it might make the older mechs totally obsolete after clanmechs arrive.
Either way it isn't necessary but a matter of personal preference and should really be discussed as such.

The risk with touting hardpoint limits as a solution to pinpoint alphas in order to make it more likely to be implemented because you like the idea is that PGI will actually do it. You could end up with limited mechs that don't have the character improvements you want, and at the same time the underlying game mechanic remains broken.

This is why in my opinion we should get the needed convergence fix done first and then have an honest discussion about whether most people would like a change to hardpoints. I don't want it changed myself but there are valid arguments for it and if it does get changed then it should be in the right way for the right reasons.

#138 Antagonist

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:18 AM

The thing about energy weapons is that compared to both ballistics and missile weapons, they really don't qualify as large. Let's face it, three crits aren't really that big when there's 7 crit gauss rifles, 10 crit AC/20s and 5 crit LRM20s around.

That's not even taking into account the 2 crit CERPPC, which is probably going to unbalance the whole game with clan spec DHS.

To be honest, I would've preferred for DHS to retain their 2 HPS dissipation at the cost of them only marginally raising total heat capacity (0.5 heat cap gain per SHS and DHS, off the top of my head). In essence, that would mean you could chainfire 3-4 PPCs, having to stay out of cover while slowly gaining heat, contrary to how it is right now: Poke your head out, alpha, retreat while overriding shutdown (if even that), cool down and start anew.

One would have to see how smaller energy weapons fare with that heat setup, but at least for massed ML boats, it'd probably mean they'd have to hit-and-run lest they shut down surrounded by aggravated hostiles looking for red reticules.

#139 Adridos

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:40 AM

View PostOtto Cannon, on 29 June 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

The other issue is whether we should restrict hardpoints on IS mechs. Some people clearly like the idea to make each chassis have to play a certain way, on the other hand it might make the older mechs totally obsolete after clanmechs arrive.


The problem is, some chassis already are heavily obsolete even if fine on their own.

Case in point, the Awesome... convergence fixed or not, there will never be a good enough reason to take it over the Stalker without any mechlab limitations.

#140 Eric darkstar Marr

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:28 AM

Bishop me and you normally agree on a lot this is one that I can not agree with you on. Since the dawn of empty build your own mech sheets and the other lore around there was never a true weapon size restriction. Now I do not mind how this game has done hard points as it limits what you can have.

The problem is a fundamental game flaw, I still to do this day believe we should have a heat scale more in line with the TT however I could hear all the players cry out at once because of randomness.

I have 1 troll mech right now a 6 ppc stk and that mech sucks hard. So to those having issues with Boat PPC builds please up your game skill and move out of the crap bracket. You will only see them sometimes then like when I drop my stk for fun.
I drop in a medium and I see like 3-5 in a game. So the root of the problem is not the boat itself but the ELO you are at.

Though for funs my clan has been known to troll all day in 732 triple ppc guass.I still prefer LLs over PPCs.





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