159 replies to this topic

[Big Giant Head]

Boating isnt problem
Problem is when you allow it to all mechs and variants

Pinpoint isnt problem
Problem is high damage

Edited by Big Giant Head, 22 July 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Kyrs, on 22 July 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Altho this post seem to adresse some of the flaws of mw4 hardpoint system(some flexible hardpoint), you'll end up killing my fun of the mech lab (which is half of the game for me).

Its more difficult to optimized a Mech within its limits. Take for example the AS7-K... i drive this Mech in its stock weapon loadout without any of its flaws.
There is still room in most "cannon" battleMechs to make them perfect - without ****** the initial design. I have to admit that some mechs are impossible to improve.

I have tried it several times with the Falconer and eacht time it was another fail.

I really believe that those of you that like toying arround in the MechLab will have more fun with a less permiting system. With only a couple of options you have to take the one that is best for you - without creating a imbalanced gap to another possible builds - for example Medium Pulse Laser for Medium Laser is no imbalance a PPC for Medium Laser is - it derivate the Mech you see a Hunchback and this time it is packed with 3 PPCs...(example) - well its no Hunchback anymore - that means you can not guess what he has - with only a "eye" lock. You have to give your Sensors time to "scan" the target... that means instead of rushing in -. and movement its camp warrior again.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 July 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Belorion]

Hard point size limits were one of the things that made MW4 not good imo. MWO should certainly NOT implement such a thing. Crit space is already a limiting factor there.

[Karl Streiger]

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Hard point size limits were one of the things that made MW4 not good imo. MWO should certainly NOT implement such a thing. Crit space is already a limiting factor there.

In your opinion were the limited hardpoints of MW 4 generally bad - or was this system only bad implemented within MW4.

If you are forced to use a limited hardpoint setting - how should it look like?

[Belorion]

Karl Streiger, on 25 July 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

In your opinion were the limited hardpoints of MW 4 generally bad - or was this system only bad implemented within MW4.

If you are forced to use a limited hardpoint setting - how should it look like?

Generally bad, and ultimately won't help with what people are trying to fix. I hopped on MW4 not long ago and built an 8 ssrm 2 Catapult. Also in MW4, if a mech could carry three PPC's, it could then carry 9 MLs. All this does is make boating the smaller weapons OP (ala machine gun and ML boats in MW4)

If you restrict it in both weapon count, and with weapon type count you are effectively making stock load outs the optimum builds, because anything else is less that what it started with. All this will do is obsolete certain chassis and everyone will be gravitating to the FOTM chassis.

The hard point type limitation in MWO is already way more limiting than TT ever was.

In the short term a move like this may stop a boat of some specific type (PPC) boats, but in the long run it will only stifle certain chassis from being competitive to an even greater degree than they are now.

[Big Giant Head]

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Hard point size limits were one of the things that made MW4 not good imo. MWO should certainly NOT implement such a thing. Crit space is already a limiting factor there.

They are not doing enough, devs arent tweaking them, if they did it would stop some some PPC crazyness but not rest of the stuff.

Spoiler

Quote

1 SLOT - 1 WEAPON

If you decide to put more weapons in 1 slot you will receive pushback:
(if you dont respect given rule)

*Just so everyone know these slots are the slots inspired by MW4 system
There can be more slots per component
Slots can have more segments from 1 to 4
Example:
1(slot)x 1(segment)
1(slot)x 2(segments)
1(slot)x 3(segments)
1(slot)x 4(segments)




2(slot)x 1(segments)
2(slot)x 2(segments)
2(slot)x 3(segments)
2(slot)x 4(segments)

And so on...

• Ballistic weapon will get increased cooldown:

It will punish player





When:
when player fires the other ballistic weapon from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 50% of the fired weapon cooldown.
How:
the weapon that was fired from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 30% of the fired weapon cooldown will get increased cooldown: 25% of the initial cooldown ( both percentages can be tweaked)
Meaning:
that "dakka-dakka" that ballistic weapons from the same slot outputs, will get slower with time
Exceptions:
Like jagermechs, they will have 2x 1 ballistic slot in both of their arms,
DD variant will have 1x 1 plus 1x 2 in both

• Energy weapon will get increased heat output:

When:

when player fires other energy weapon from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 10%-15% of its cooldown
How:
weapon that was fired from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 10%-15% of its cooldown
will get increased heat output: 40% of the initial heat output ( both percentages can be tweaked )
Meaning:
player will be forced to chainfire and will have better sense for firing lasers and their heat generated
Exceptions:
Like Hunchback 4P, they will have 2x 2 plus 2x 1 slots (which makes it 6), enabled to fire up to 4 med las size in alpha without pushback, rest two will have to go in sub-alpha chainfire if player doesnt want to have pushback on those two weapons

• Missile weapon will get increased heat output and cooldown but both will be weaker than energy and ballistic:

When:
when player fires other energy weapon from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 45% of its cooldown
How:
weapon that was fired from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 45% of its cooldown
will get increased heat output: 25% of the initial heat output ( all percentages can be tweaked )
Meaning:
Player will be forced to hold lock-on longer

Boating smaller weapons ^

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Generally bad, and ultimately won't help with what people are trying to fix. I hopped on MW4 not long ago and built an 8 ssrm 2 Catapult. Also in MW4, if a mech could carry three PPC's, it could then carry 9 MLs. All this does is make boating the smaller weapons OP (ala machine gun and ML boats in MW4)

If you restrict it in both weapon count, and with weapon type count you are effectively making stock load outs the optimum builds, because anything else is less that what it started with. All this will do is obsolete certain chassis and everyone will be gravitating to the FOTM chassis.

The hard point type limitation in MWO is already way more limiting than TT ever was.

In the short term a move like this may stop a boat of some specific type (PPC) boats, but in the long run it will only stifle certain chassis from being competitive to an even greater degree than they are now.

This is FPS, time to change clothes

Edited by Big Giant Head, 25 July 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Belorion]

Big Giant Head, on 25 July 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

This is FPS, time to change clothes

That is an especially empty argument given the context. Despite what some people claim. Restricting hard points further will not increase build diversity, it will only further limit what people play.

Edited by Belorion, 25 July 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

The hard point type limitation in MWO is already way more limiting than TT ever was.

Oh ... well this mistake was solved with Strategic Operations Maintenance and Refits.

There are refit kits - ranging form A to F. I would belief that A and B is the only kind of refits we should been allowed in MWO - for free.
The other things need factory or maintenance requirements. So - they could still be possible - but only once when buying a Mech.

They would have been a better "limitation" as the number of hard points.


However you did point out the bads of MW4 hardpoints - but what would you have done better?
Remember that the current hard points are not very friendly for the development of "new" kinds of Mechs for this game.

[Big Giant Head]

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

That is an especially empty argument given the context. Despite what some people claim. Restricting hard points further will not increase build diversity, it will only further limit what people play.

THE CONTEXT HERE is not just should hardpoints be implemeted - its much more bigger than that, its all MWO/ FPS issues that can be solved with proper Hardpoint system limitizing how much dmg you do at pinpoint, but not pinpoint accuracy

Limiting something that is "overly exposed" to cheese and cookie-cuter builds, while keeping true customization and variant differences at logical "distance" is not bad at all

Edited by Big Giant Head, 25 July 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Belorion]

Karl Streiger, on 25 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Limiting something that is "overly exposed" to cheese and cookie-cuter builds, while keeping true customization and variant differences at logical "distance" is not bad at all

So instead of 4 PPC stalkers we will have 5 lpl Stalkers. Is this really all that different? Except now we can't run the 4 PPC stalker even though I currently sometimes see 5 lpl stalkers.

Karl Streiger, on 25 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

However you did point out the bads of MW4 hardpoints - but what would you have done better?
Remember that the current hard points are not very friendly for the development of "new" kinds of Mechs for this game.

Implemented a system like MWOs

[Big Giant Head]

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

So instead of 4 PPC stalkers we will have 5 lpl Stalkers. Is this really all that different? Except now we can't run the 4 PPC stalker even though I currently sometimes see 5 lpl stalkers.

Who said anything about allowing that? First learn to differentiate MW4 style from MW4 loadout layout
Second check out hardpoint logic of stalker that I posted as picture because when you tried to transfer stalker from MWO to MW4 you probably got something wrong

Edited by Big Giant Head, 25 July 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Wolf Ender]

I don't really have a huge problem with the current hardpoint system

however if the devs do see fit to change it, i would rather have a system like MW4's old mechlab where you were limited by a certain amount of space not a number of hardpoints. i would even prefer this over the proposal of having multiple sizes of hardpoints and only could load weapons of that type in those hardpoints.

the devs could get very creative too by looking certain mech variants that would in theory be the same or very very close in nature but giving them different space available in different locations or breaking up the space in different ratios.

I think in the end it's hard to say whether this will increase overall build diversity. on one hand you can see how it would make many builds impossible that would otherwise be easy to do...however necessity is the mother of invention and i think introducing a few more restrictions might force mechlab tinkerers to think outside the box and try new and different approaches.

it's a little bit counter-intuitive but sometimes the maximum amount of freedom (like the current system) leads to less diversity because when you make it possible to say "the ppc is the best weapon...how many ppcs can i fit on this mech" you actually end up with less diversity overall and less creativity on the part of the players

[Big Giant Head]

When you ask people should we implement MW4 - like hardpoint slot system, they think that its all about hardpont layout of each mech in MW4. So they remeber those mechs from MW4 that werent effective or that pushed you to boat weapons.
But, thats not what matters, with MW4 slot system you can create a lot of creative slot designs like in "spoiler"

Spoiler

I actually proposed hardpoint slot system as an "ad" to current critical system, where we still keep specific weapon critical sizes and critical slots in general. Only thing that changes is hardpoint confiduration, setup - which devs constantly keep under the blanket, they never tried to balance weapon boating and direct boating to specific mechs with hardpoint system which is best candidate for that issue.

Wolf Ender, on 25 July 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

it's a little bit counter-intuitive but sometimes the maximum amount of freedom (like the current system) leads to less diversity because when you make it possible to say "the ppc is the best weapon...how many ppcs can i fit on this mech" you actually end up with less diversity overall and less creativity on the part of the players

Yeah, again, if you allow player to make the same weapon loadout to all variants something is wrong - and Im not just talking about 1 or 2 weapon loadouts.

[Drunk Canuck]

Honestly, I was never a fan of the limited hardpoints. While I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to get rid of things like AC40 Mech's, but the MW4 design was pretty horrible.

[Big Giant Head]

Drunk Canuck, on 26 July 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Honestly, I was never a fan of the limited hardpoints. While I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to get rid of things like AC40 Mech's, but the MW4 design was pretty horrible.

Was it hardpoint layout of each mech terrible in MW4 or the actual system of hardpoint slots, because those are two different things.
MW4 hardpoint layout for each mech was terrible because devs didnt used hardpoint slot system to full potential.
Plus on the other hand we here at MWO have variants, meaning more diversity - but it seems that that didnt work out well

[Jestun]

If someone can explain how this can be done without nerfing (or completely removing the possibility of) the many builds which are not OP then sure.

But the reality is there would be loads of collateral damage as perfectly fine builds become impossible to use.

So no.

[Big Giant Head]

Jestun, on 27 July 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

If someone can explain how this can be done without nerfing (or completely removing the possibility of) the many builds which are not OP then sure.

But the reality is there would be loads of collateral damage as perfectly fine builds become impossible to use.

So no.

Give me example

Considering that currently we have too much freedom so anyone with even 1 energy hardpoint can mount PPC - any mech

Imagine if someone gives you to buy and eat anything in anytime, you would probably eat always the things you like, right?
How will someone force you to eat other things?

So, considering that any mech can put any weapon of the category the have, they will always play with nicer weapons, that are easier to use.
So, lack of customization, comparing to the current state isnt bad at all.

Edited by Big Giant Head, 27 July 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Ralgas]

And as i keep saying in these threads it won't stop op weapon combos, it will just reduce the number of chassis that can mount them, creating less choice for the higher end.......

example: twin gauss is a stock variant of the jagger, the altas k has a gauss and 2 erllas, and the awesome 9m/8q go from being under powered to the primary sniper. The battlemaster has a 2erppc with space for an erllas (replacing a Lplas in the stock loadout) to put with it in a stock variant. Not to mention we won't even go near some of the assaults/clan boats that would have to be left out of the game just because they would be that strong ........

[Jestun]

Big Giant Head, on 27 July 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Give me example

Considering that currently we have too much freedom so anyone with even 1 energy hardpoint can mount PPC - any mech

Imagine if someone gives you to buy and eat anything in anytime, you would probably eat always the things you like, right?
How will someone force you to eat other things?

So, considering that any mech can put any weapon of the category the have, they will always play with nicer weapons, that are easier to use.
So, lack of customization, comparing to the current state isnt bad at all.

If you provide a list of each mech and what restrictions are applied to each hardpoint I can give you examples of non-OP builds that it would break.

Obviously you don't need to go through every mech, but I can only give examples on mechs where I know what your desired system would do.

[Big Giant Head]

Jestun, on 27 July 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

If you provide a list of each mech and what restrictions are applied to each hardpoint I can give you examples of non-OP builds that it would break.

Obviously you don't need to go through every mech, but I can only give examples on mechs where I know what your desired system would do.

Ignore black rectangles and critical slots in general and dont mind critical slots of each hardpoint either - just focus on hardpoint slots

Spoiler

Quote

1 SLOT - 1 WEAPON

If you decide to put more weapons in 1 slot you will receive pushback:
(if you dont respect given rule)

*Just so everyone know these slots are the slots inspired by MW4 system
There can be more slots per component
Slots can have more segments from 1 to 4
Example:
1(slot)x 1(segment)
1(slot)x 2(segments)
1(slot)x 3(segments)
1(slot)x 4(segments)




2(slot)x 1(segments)
2(slot)x 2(segments)
2(slot)x 3(segments)
2(slot)x 4(segments)

And so on...

• Ballistic weapon will get increased cooldown:

It will punish player






When:
when player fires the other ballistic weapon from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 50% of the fired weapon cooldown.
How:
the weapon that was fired from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 30% of the fired weapon cooldown will get increased cooldown: 25% of the initial cooldown ( both percentages can be tweaked)
Meaning:
that "dakka-dakka" that ballistic weapons from the same slot outputs, will get slower with time
Exceptions:
Like jagermechs, they will have 2x 1 ballistic slot in both of their arms,
DD variant will have 1x 1 plus 1x 2 in both

• Energy weapon will get increased heat output:

When:


when player fires other energy weapon from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 10%-15% of its cooldown
How:
weapon that was fired from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 10%-15% of its cooldown
will get increased heat output: 40% of the initial heat output ( both percentages can be tweaked )
Meaning:
player will be forced to chainfire and will have better sense for firing lasers and their heat generated
Exceptions:
Like Hunchback 4P, they will have 2x 2 plus 2x 1 slots (which makes it 6), enabled to fire up to 4 med las size in alpha without pushback, rest two will have to go in sub-alpha chainfire if player doesnt want to have pushback on those two weapons

• Missile weapon will get increased heat output and cooldown but both will be weaker than energy and ballistic:

When:

when player fires other energy weapon from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 45% of its cooldown
How:
weapon that was fired from the same slot before the first one was cooled down for 45% of its cooldown
will get increased heat output: 25% of the initial heat output ( all percentages can be tweaked )
Meaning:
Player will be forced to hold lock-on longer

HBK-4G


HBK-4H


Awesome-8Q


Dragon-5N


Dragon-1N


Dragon-1C

Edited by Big Giant Head, 27 July 2013 - 05:33 AM.