108 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

In every LRM thread, a large number of players always arrive to try to claim LRM facts based on a very, very skewed outlook based a limited knowledge of how the weapon system actually works and ignorance from being isolated in lower ELO brackets.

This has resulted in the same few catch phrases coming up, such as "Skillless," "Support Weapon!" and "Softening up targets" - all of which are absolutely inaccurate or represent total misunderstandings to this overly complicated, insanely difficult to use effectively weapon system that is still underpowered in the current meta.

I'm going to attempt to address these points one by one. In addition I will be reserving the 2nd post for upcoming controlled-setting video demonstrations and other media.

I'm really growing tired of arguing this in every sub-thread corner. If I can educate at least one player as to how and why LRMs work, this thread will be a success.

---

Myth: LRMs are Easy Mode!
Truth: LRMs are the hardest to use weapon in the game. There are a number of reasons for that, I'll address in two parts.

THE BUILD

1- Without TAG + Artemis, LRM spread widens out drastically and cannot track fast movers reliably at all. These are required weapon systems, along with the recommended Adv. Target Decay module, before you even place an LRM on your 'mech.

2- LRMs are among the heaviest, most ammo-happy weapons in the game. If you put 3 tons per LRM/15 launcher on your 'mech and do well, you will run out of ammunition before the end of the match, with precious little room for backups.

3- LRMs also have to be placed in 'mech sections that can accommodate them, beyond missile hardpoints. If a 'mech only has 10 launch tubes, it won't be able to pour out 20s in a single cluster, which is a large deal in relation to AMS.

4- LRMs are unique in that a piece of equipment, AMS, exists purely to counter them and that it will assist not only the mounting 'mech, but every 'mech in the area and any 'mech between the LRM user and the target.

5- You pretty much are required to mount a BAP in order to counter a single ECM 'mech, and obtain decent speed target locks - doubly so if they are locks through a brief gap in an ECM bubble.

6- You cannot simply throw a lot of LRMs on a Stalker and expect it to work out. You need to be able to dictate engagement ranges that can keep you within TAG and Artemis to do any notable damage whatsoever, and for that, you need a medium or heavy typically sporting twin LRM15s. While some slower missile boats might exist, they are extremely easy to negate at both long range and close.

IN USE

1- You constantly need to jockey to between 170 and 750 to utilize TAG and also to insure that targets will not simply walk out of range. Without a clear LOS Artemis is disabled as well, massively impacting spread and rendering the missiles almost completely ineffective.

2- You need to constantly find positions that both can clear your missiles, and land them on the target. As this is often incompatible with your team's positioning (direct fire weapons) you need to risk isolating yourself to gain good firing angles.

3- Due to the need to keep TAG on the target (through the last 25% of the missile flight, at least) as well as maintaining locks, you need to keep your CT pointed directly at what you are shooting at, making you a very easy target for their allies.

4- You constantly have to gauge if shots are worth it to preserve the, again, highly limited ammunition. Many are not. More on this in the next section.

5- I'd like to remind you that locking takes time. Time that, if you try this in the open (rather than pre-locking) you will be cored by a PPC firing squad long before you even get your first flight out of the launchers.

COMPARISON: ER PPC

Add an ER PPC. Add a DHS. Point at a target at any range, pull the trigger. Enjoy near-instant damage delivery while the LRM guy is still trying to get a lock. Woops, target just popped to cover!

Myth: LRMs have indirect fire, and that makes them super powerful! Just sit behind a hill pulling the trigger on red locks!
Truth: Oh, how I envy your optimism. No, LRMs don't work like that at all. Let me cover the major reasons:

1- Spotters simply cannot hang out staring at enemy 'mechs. Spotters don't even really exist as a viable class (and why should it, for a lackluster weapon system?) No, the only people who can actually spot are front line fighting 'mechs that might maintain lock for a bit. However..

2- Indirect fire suuuucks. With the exception of someone ducking under cover just before missiles impact (and thus are still grouped and aimed at them), firing at people via indirect is nothing more than ammo wasting chip damage. It takes the LRM from an almost usable weapon to a completely horrendous one immediately. This is because...

3- Again, Artemis does not work without LOS and neither does TAG. You need LOS to utilize these features, which LRMs rely on for tracking & grouping to do anything worthwhile.

4- ECM still screws things up. If there's more than one ECM 'mech in a group, you just lost your indirect fire ability. Better get in TAG range.

Myth: LRMs don't need Artemis & TAG to work well!
Truth: Oh boy, yes they do. Without this they lack the track speed and spread to do any damage to targets that move faster than 100kp/h, and are likely to do nothing but scattered damage with half-salvos on heavier 'mechs. LRMs are literally balanced around requiring several pieces of gear or they simply are a joke for their tonnage.

Myth: LRMs are designed to "soften up targets" not kill them! They are a "support weapon!"
Truth: The LRM is tonned and crit'ed like a top tier weapon, which it has always been in BattleTech and MechWarrior. Anyone stating that it's role was to "soften up" targets in TT has probably never even played a good TT game in their life, but I don't want to derail about the board game. They've been great in every single MechWarrior incarnation.

Their role in the ecosystem before the first nerf was to punish targets (which they did poorly due to flight speed, so I'm glad that's improved) that decide to venture into the open- and to do that, they need to be able to deliver punishment: More DPS than a sniper equivalent. Otherwise, why not just take a sniper and shoot people with that instead? Remember, other weapons outrange the LRM by a wide margin, in particular when you figure shots at 900m are likely to entirely wiff as even an assault can walk out of range before they land.

I've got no problems with a weapon designed to soften up targets if it weighed a couple tons. If I'm investing several specialist systems and every free ton purely to a single weapon system, I expect it to deliver results.

Again, support weapons in real life are things like M249 SAWs. HIGHLY damaging, high capacity, high ROF weapons that are less likely to kill things than a rifle simply because the whole point is to keep people's heads down, primarily. Without a threat of massive damage, LRMs are merely less effective snipers. If you're going to say indirect fire again, please look at my point on how indirect fire is freaking awful.

Myth: I can run just a couple LRMs and do totally fine in a non-dedicated build!
Truth: No you can't. If you're seeing those results, you're fighting very low bracket people, and there's not much getting around it. A single AMS will shred most of those missiles, and doubly so if it's on a 'mech between you and your victim (opposed to just your victim), as AMS will kick in and start taking missiles down from ceiling-height. You are lucky to even get 5% of your firepower through.

Again, this is not a problem for snipers or even brawlers (barring Streaks, the main reason people take AMS). I've honestly heard people claim that AMS should be able to completely negate LRM 'mechs because of the "investment." Let's look at that for a moment:

AMS user:
1.5 tons for the gun and ammo
Works on Streaks (way more threatening) and LRMs
Will cover every ally and target all enemy missiles in range.

.. a decent investment on a light, to be sure. So far, that's reasonable.

LRM user:
30 tons of weapons min. + 6 tons of ammo minimum + Artemis IV & TAG + Adv. Taget Decay.
Turned into a brick by a handful of medium 'mechs that happen to have AMS to avoid Streaks.

So yeah, LRMs have that to contend with, complete with people believing that the shared AMS is fine as is since 6 tons of total team weight should shut down 50+ tons on the other team from being useful.

Myth: Improving LRMs will just encourage boating!
Truth: As LRMs require such specific engagement ranges with a huge minimum, you need to keep your speed up. Any 'mech going slower than 100 is at risk, likely 80, with LRMs. You can simply dart in and out of a Stalker's min/max and crush it while it is a huge paper weight, or two ECM 'mechs can get on it and shut it down since it can't even run fast enough to get back to the line. Huge LRM boats are never going to work in MW:O the way they are setup.

Myth: LRM balance isn't that important.
Truth: As a major part of the "weapon ecosystem" yes they are. We need to make them viable to punish snipers that are moving out into the open, and to suppress attackers while we move brawlers into position. When LRMs were honestly overpowered in the last "LRM Apocalypse" there was a very sharp rise in brawler builds. By the end of the LRM Apocalypse (right before it was fixed) most good units had abandon LRMs outside of a single 'mech or two and gone to a mix of sniping & brawling. Brawling.

Yes, I am saying improved LRMs brought back brawlers, because they did. It is apart of the ecosystem.

Quick Myths
- TAG won't help you hit lights | YES IT DOES! The tracking + grouping is vital or you won't do a thing to fast movers!
- LRMs go dumbfire before they hit you | NO THEY DON'T! If you think you see this, the LRM user lost lock!
- LRMs are just vague aiming at red boxes and pressing buttons! | SURE.. if you want the damage output of a flamer Spider, doubled by the fact 80% of your shots will miss as locks are lost.
- LRMs aren't supposed to be kill weapons! | ALREADY COVERED, but worth repeating: This meme needs to die. It's got no basis in BattleTech or MW:O. They should be exceptional kill weapons, in their niche environment (open terrain).
- LRMs hit me indirect all the time, and they kick the crap out of me! OP! | Cockpit shake and lots of blaring sounds =/= doing much damage.

EDIT: I will update this post as more points get brought up in the thread and oh boy, I'm sure they will.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 June 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Sephlock]

Don't worry, there is a super harsh nerf slated for SSRMs, so soon we may see less mechs running AMS!

Everybody wins!....

Edited by Sephlock, 28 June 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Sephlock, on 28 June 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Don't worry, there is a super harsh nerf slated for SSRMs, so soon we may see less mechs running AMS!

Everybody wins!....

I saw that. It made me sad they aren't following through with the original "track what's under your reticule" system they promised for SSRMs, that would have been great. Now they're likely to be completely useless.

[One Medic Army]

Addition:
Myth: LRMs counter snipers
Fact: snipers counter LRM users. Snipers peek out and fire at the LRM user, forcing them into cover and to lose lock before the missiles are even halfway to target, or sometimes before even launched.

I tend to agree with your analysis of the current situation, though not necessarily your suggestions for improvement.

Personally I think part of the problem is the fact that Adv. Target Decay exists, since it makes the enemy dodging/avoiding LRMs increasingly difficult.
Prior to Adv. Target Decay if you got hit with LRMs you had only yourself to blame.
Since you had only yourself to blame, LRMs could deal high amounts of damage without (most) players considering them OP, of course they didn't all super-home CT at that time either due to high arc and tight clustering.

What I'd like: wider spread (also helps LRMs hit lights moving at speed), higher damage, no Adv. Target Decay, quicker lock-resumptions for targets that already have LRMs aimed at them (so people have to remain in cover for the whole flight time, making it true suppression weapon).

[Victor Morson]

Honestly the main reason I endorse Adv. Target Decay is not to hold locks on people who have gone indirect; largely because you will lose lock by the time your missiles get there anyway, if they're not already in flight. And if they are, you likely wouldn't need ATD, because they'd still be impacting.

No the primary reason you need ATD is so you can turn and run briefly, then turn back without losing your lock entirely - as well as to not lose targets moving past solid objects (such as running down a street in River City).

As a way to hold locks on targets taking cover / continue to fire, it's entirely terrible. If not for the fact that running & repositioning was such a big deal, I'd probably skip the module.

One Medic Army, on 28 June 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Addition:
Myth: LRMs counter snipers
Fact: snipers counter LRM users. Snipers peek out and fire at the LRM user, forcing them into cover and to lose lock before the missiles are even halfway to target, or sometimes before even launched.

LRMs aren't likely to damage snipers that are in cover, no, but they are great weapons to force people to keep their heads down. Once a lock is gained you won't be able to peak again until it clears, or you'll just refresh it, so that's one less sniper watching a lane you're sending brawlers down, basically.

So you're right in a sense, and definitely right with the current meta (where Snipers counter everything with no natural enemies), but if LRMs get some more buffs, they're very good at that role.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 June 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Nice to see a good write-up about those myths, nice job.

As best I understand however is that ARTEMIS is bugged now, and works on indirect at the moment.

I would argue the worst thing so far is how NARC underperforms to the point its not worth the space int he mechlab display, despite its use should be a prime addition for other mainline mechs for the LRMs.

TAG is also another piece that is good for any mech, as the addition of TAG makes any team LRM perform at its peak.

The LRMpocolypse caused by splash damage was too much, but now without it the damage is still lacking where it should deliver. The fear of Stalker LRM60-80 or the dreaded LRM100 doesn't justify keeping the damage output of a more reasonable LRM40 or LRM30 on a Catapult or other mechs.

Lastly is the damage and ammo. With Double Armor implemented our current 150% ammo boost for LRMs is woefully few to be effective for the spent weight, and the shot per missile still feels low compared to its function. This requires so much invested weight were something else would benefit more from another weapon like the PPC boaters.

[Victor Morson]

Unbound Inferno, on 28 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

As best I understand however is that ARTEMIS is bugged now, and works on indirect at the moment.

This was fixed shortly after the LRM Apocalypse. If anything it's bugged in that it likes to not work with targets that are mostly in your view, but have a small part behind a hill.

Unbound Inferno, on 28 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

I would argue the worst thing so far is how NARC underperforms to the point its not worth the space int he mechlab display, despite its use should be a prime addition for other mainline mechs for the LRMs.

Oh, NARC, my nemesis. The big reason NARC is a spectacular failure - even more than it's range, weight, tracking speed and benefits - is the fact it is incompatible with Artemis. Given every single good LRM 'mech will be running Artemis, it makes it 4 tons + ammo of pure wasted space. It so needs buffs, I'm right with you!

Unbound Inferno, on 28 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

TAG is also another piece that is good for any mech, as the addition of TAG makes any team LRM perform at its peak.

Yep, this is a great piece of gear for any LRM 'mech. Solid move!

Unbound Inferno, on 28 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

The LRMpocolypse caused by splash damage was too much, but now without it the damage is still lacking where it should deliver. The fear of Stalker LRM60-80 or the dreaded LRM100 doesn't justify keeping the damage output of a more reasonable LRM40 or LRM30 on a Catapult or other mechs.

I really think that the LRM80-100 'mechs are doomed anyway, just because they can't manuver around the battlefield to get the range and shots they need. The fact that this balance has thrown off the 'mechs that do stand a chance - mediums and light heavies - is really painful. But definitely, +1.

Unbound Inferno, on 28 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Lastly is the damage and ammo. With Double Armor implemented our current 150% ammo boost for LRMs is woefully few to be effective for the spent weight, and the shot per missile still feels low compared to its function. This requires so much invested weight were something else would benefit more from another weapon like the PPC boaters.

I absolutely agree, and it's why I keep calling the weapon "ammo hungry." My primary LRM 'mech is a Centurion 9D with twin LRM/15s and TAG, but even with 6 tons of ammo, it's dry well before the fight is over (unless my team has been outputting enough damage to make up for it.) It's part of the reason I say you can't waste shots on indirect targets, because the ammo is beyond precious in it's current form.

Well said, man.

[Victor Morson]

Just a reminder I'm going to try to take some video footage this coming week of various weapons in controlled environments, and not in the training grounds. This is for a greater video on balance concerns but will positively cover LRMs. I will try to get footage posted ASAP.

[RG Notch]

Yup all the LRM lovers will be out to foster this.

[Phaesphoros]

Unfortunately, the myths are not objectively formulated (biased) and many answers are (based on) opinions, without clearly stating so (or providing support/evidence).

Some of the responses are also at least inacurate, e.g.

Quote

LRMs are among the heaviest, most ammo-happy weapons in the game

A non-artemis LRM15 is more efficient (tonnage) than a LRM10 or LRM20; it weighs 7 t and does over 16 dmg. That is neither one of the heaviest weapon nor is it particularily ammo-hungry if you don't boat it. You might want to add one more ton of ammo as compared to ballistics, dependent on how you use them (if it's your primary weapon, more ammo per launcher).

I appreciate your write-up, but I don't know if it helps in the way it's formulated.

Edit: IMO the current missile mechanics are not good.

Edited by Phaesphoros, 28 June 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Victor Morson, on 28 June 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Yep, this is a great piece of gear for any LRM 'mech. Solid move!

I was actually implying on any mech that even didn't carry LRMs. I am extremely happy and occasionally lucky to run with a brawler or a scout with TAG making my indirect fire support for them meaningful.

Victor Morson, on 28 June 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

I absolutely agree, and it's why I keep calling the weapon "ammo hungry." My primary LRM 'mech is a Centurion 9D with twin LRM/15s and TAG, but even with 6 tons of ammo, it's dry well before the fight is over (unless my team has been outputting enough damage to make up for it.) It's part of the reason I say you can't waste shots on indirect targets, because the ammo is beyond precious in it's current form.

Well said, man.

Thanks.

My preferred are Catapults at the moment, LRM30 on the C1 and A1 with 6 tons too, but my version of choice is a C4 that runs LRM40 by either 2x LRM20 or 2x LRM15 and 2x LRM5 that runs hot, chew ammo out faster than you'd think even with 10 tons on it. Still testing to see which performs better, the DPS of the mix or the up-front of the large salvo.

[Tezcatli]

Very well written. I completely agree that people have this strange misconception of LRMs being easy.

I agree AMS is too strong now. It should be a mitigater not completely block missiles. I wonder if it would prerable to just change AMS back to what it was and possibly increase the speed of missiles just a tad more.

[Rebas Kradd]

I love using LRM's to soften up already-engaged targets. Works fine for me without TAG, though I do have Artemis.

[Volthorne]

I'd request a sticky, but that's never going to happen. Bump for great justice!

[blinkin]

i like how you did this, BUT i don't entirely agree with some of your conclusions. in an entirely PUG environment i think you are completely right. however LRM are probably the most team work intensive weapons in the game. as a result their abilities are magnified greatly when you have a friend or two on skype, i think they are more effected by this than anything else in the game.

i run a 2x LRM20 hunchback 4SP and i only play it when my friends are on because otherwise it is almost useless (no one ever holds lock for more than a few seconds). the ECM umbrella is fairly pure concentrated BS, but otherwise as long as you have a decent spotter to hold targets you can easily tear down most targets. it does take more time but (if everyone is doing their job) you get to fire from relative safety and the suppression effects (blurring, noise, shake) are more effective than any other weapon (i specifically chose the 4SP to maximize these effects).

as far as a PUG weapon LRM may be more of a waste of tonnage than machine guns.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Waste of time really. Too many people die to LRM's due to their own rampant stupidity.

[Ningyo]

LRM Myths of Victor Morson Debunked

Victor Morson, on 28 June 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

In every LRM thread, a large number of players always arrive to try to claim LRM facts based on a very, very skewed outlook based a limited knowledge of how the weapon system actually works and ignorance from being isolated in lower ELO brackets.
TRUE

This has resulted in the same few catch phrases coming up, such as "Skillless," "Support Weapon!" and "Softening up targets" - all of which are absolutely inaccurate or represent total misunderstandings to this overly complicated, insanely difficult to use effectively weapon system that is still underpowered in the current meta.
Halfway true it is a support weapon just like a mortar or howitzer is in real life, that does not mean weak, in general support weapons are some of the most dangerous weapons out there.

I'm going to attempt to address these points one by one. In addition I will be reserving the 2nd post for upcoming controlled-setting video demonstrations and other media.

I'm really growing tired of arguing this in every sub-thread corner. If I can educate at least one player as to how and why LRMs work, this thread will be a success.
I hope people do not take your word as fact or many will perpetuate many of these myths

---

Myth: LRMs are Easy Mode!
Truth: LRMs are the hardest to use weapon in the game. There are a number of reasons for that, I'll address in two parts.
FALSE LRMs are neither easiest nor hardest to use, Lasers are likely hardest, and PPC, gauss or streaks are probably easiest

THE BUILD

1- Without TAG + Artemis, LRM spread widens out drastically and cannot track fast movers reliably at all. These are required weapon systems, along with the recommended Adv. Target Decay module, before you even place an LRM on your 'mech.
Untrue, but these will significantly help an LRM 20 with artemis has about the same spread as an LRM 10 without artemis, an LRM 20 with Artemis and TAG has about the same spread as an LRM 5 without either. Artemis is of the most use due to increasing lock on speed and time for missiles and is a huge benefit, TAG is very good for killing large slow mechs faster, and also is your only way of breaking through ECM so it is very useful. Adv. Target Decay will give you far more ability to hit targets trying to hide behind cover (your missiles will travel 180m further before you have lost your lock to be exact) so it is really really good. Agreed though in general you do want all these systems as they will noticeably improve your mechs ability to hurt things with your missiles. On the not tracking fast movers it is 100% false.

2- LRMs are among the heaviest, most ammo-happy weapons in the game. If you put 3 tons per LRM/15 launcher on your 'mech and do well, you will run out of ammunition before the end of the match, with precious little room for backups.
TRUE

3- LRMs also have to be placed in 'mech sections that can accommodate them, beyond missile hardpoints. If a 'mech only has 10 launch tubes, it won't be able to pour out 20s in a single cluster, which is a large deal in relation to AMS.
Mostly TRUE, and with under 20 missiles in a volley you should avoid firing at someone with an AMS, if under 40 missiles avoid groups with 2 AMS if possible. Spreading out missile fire can be effective against mechs with no AMS however so this is situational and depends on the skill of your opposition.

4- LRMs are unique in that a piece of equipment, AMS, exists purely to counter them and that it will assist not only the mounting 'mech, but every 'mech in the area and any 'mech between the LRM user and the target.
TRUE though AMS also affects Streak SRM. And they both also have ECM as a second counter to them it isn't only AMS

5- You pretty much are required to mount a BAP in order to counter a single ECM 'mech, and obtain decent speed target locks - doubly so if they are locks through a brief gap in an ECM bubble.
Halfay true: BAP is needed to counter being within 180 meters of a mech with ECM, BAP does not counter mechs with ECM at range that requires TAG. And BAP does not increase target lock speed (it increases target information speed)

6- You cannot simply throw a lot of LRMs on a Stalker and expect it to work out. You need to be able to dictate engagement ranges that can keep you within TAG and Artemis to do any notable damage whatsoever, and for that, you need a medium or heavy typically sporting twin LRM15s. While some slower missile boats might exist, they are extremely easy to negate at both long range and close.
FALSE it is true you can't just throw hundreds of missiles at enemies and expect them to do anything, but this is an issue of knowing when to shoot and what targets to aim at, not an issue of what mech you are using (although it is true some are better than others for using LRMs)

IN USE

1- You constantly need to jockey to between 170 and 750 to utilize TAG and also to insure that targets will not simply walk out of range. Without a clear LOS Artemis is disabled as well, massively impacting spread and rendering the missiles almost completely ineffective.
Mostly FALSE at present there is a bug making Artemis work even when you have no LoS (unless they fixed this with no notice in last couple days I should test it again. However it is true this is how Artemis is supposed to work and will in future) and minimum range is 180 not 170m though based on mech models and how range is measured you may have LRMs impact without detonating up to 190m away. Also note if you are being chased they will cover some of the range while missiles are in air so then you need to fire from at least 220m away or more.

2- You need to constantly find positions that both can clear your missiles, and land them on the target. As this is often incompatible with your team's positioning (direct fire weapons) you need to risk isolating yourself to gain good firing angles.
TRUE

3- Due to the need to keep TAG on the target (through the last 25% of the missile flight, at least) as well as maintaining locks, you need to keep your CT pointed directly at what you are shooting at, making you a very easy target for their allies.
Halfway true: you need to have TAG on target when missiles hit there last flight tracking point just before they hit the enemy mech. and if you have a mech with an energy slot in its arms it is possible to fire while staying partially rotated, this is a minor advantage the awesome has although this takes more skill to pull off well.

4- You constantly have to gauge if shots are worth it to preserve the, again, highly limited ammunition. Many are not. More on this in the next section.
TRUE

5- I'd like to remind you that locking takes time. Time that, if you try this in the open (rather than pre-locking) you will be cored by a PPC firing squad long before you even get your first flight out of the launchers.
TRUE

COMPARISON: ER PPC

Add an ER PPC. Add a DHS. Point at a target at any range, pull the trigger. Enjoy near-instant damage delivery while the LRM guy is still trying to get a lock. Woops, target just popped to cover!

Myth: LRMs have indirect fire, and that makes them super powerful! Just sit behind a hill pulling the trigger on red locks!
Truth: Oh, how I envy your optimism. No, LRMs don't work like that at all. Let me cover the major reasons:

1- Spotters simply cannot hang out staring at enemy 'mechs. Spotters don't even really exist as a viable class (and why should it, for a lackluster weapon system?) No, the only people who can actually spot are front line fighting 'mechs that might maintain lock for a bit. However..
TRUE

2- Indirect fire suuuucks. With the exception of someone ducking under cover just before missiles impact (and thus are still grouped and aimed at them), firing at people via indirect is nothing more than ammo wasting chip damage. It takes the LRM from an almost usable weapon to a completely horrendous one immediately. This is because...
FALSE, though it will take a lot more skill in knowing what targets will be good, this requires a good memory of the maps and what cover is what height and angle, plus a grasp of enemy mech heights, facing, and other factors. It does make using LRMs effectively at least three times as difficult.

3- Again, Artemis does not work without LOS and neither does TAG. You need LOS to utilize these features, which LRMs rely on for tracking & grouping to do anything worthwhile.
FALSE as of last time this was tested (5 days ago by me) or last comment by devs. There is a bug that causes Artemis to work even when lacking LOS (once bug is fixed this will be true). TAG works perfectly regardless of LOS although without LOS the TAG needs to be used by another mech that has LOS.

4- ECM still screws things up. If there's more than one ECM 'mech in a group, you just lost your indirect fire ability. Better get in TAG range.
TRUE a friendly mech with BAP or ECM on counter, or a UAV can also assist with this in a group environment however.

Myth: LRMs don't need Artemis & TAG to work well!
Truth: Oh boy, yes they do. Without this they lack the track speed and spread to do any damage to targets that move faster than 100kp/h, and are likely to do nothing but scattered damage with half-salvos on heavier 'mechs. LRMs are literally balanced around requiring several pieces of gear or they simply are a joke for their tonnage.
Halfway TRUE: Artemis will make LRM 15-20 almost twice as deadly, LRM 10 will be somewhat better, LRM 5 will almost only be improved by the increased target acquisition speed (still might be worth it but not as important). These both also have approximately no affect on hitting fast moving targets, that is almost entirely dependent on speed and direction the mech is moving although there are some very advanced firing techniques that can be used to get around it, those take absurd skill to pull off though read my LRM guide in guides and strategies if you want, think I mentioned it there)

Myth: LRMs are designed to "soften up targets" not kill them! They are a "support weapon!"
Truth: The LRM is tonned and crit'ed like a top tier weapon, which it has always been in BattleTech and MechWarrior. Anyone stating that it's role was to "soften up" targets in TT has probably never even played a good TT game in their life, but I don't want to derail about the board game. They've been great in every single MechWarrior incarnation.
TRUE

Their role in the ecosystem before the first nerf was to punish targets (which they did poorly due to flight speed, so I'm glad that's improved) that decide to venture into the open- and to do that, they need to be able to deliver punishment: More DPS than a sniper equivalent. Otherwise, why not just take a sniper and shoot people with that instead? Remember, other weapons outrange the LRM by a wide margin, in particular when you figure shots at 900m are likely to entirely wiff as even an assault can walk out of range before they land.
TRUE

I've got no problems with a weapon designed to soften up targets if it weighed a couple tons. If I'm investing several specialist systems and every free ton purely to a single weapon system, I expect it to deliver results.

Again, support weapons in real life are things like M249 SAWs. HIGHLY damaging, high capacity, high ROF weapons that are less likely to kill things than a rifle simply because the whole point is to keep people's heads down, primarily. Without a threat of massive damage, LRMs are merely less effective snipers. If you're going to say indirect fire again, please look at my point on how indirect fire is freaking awful.
TRUE except the indirect fire its just very difficult not awful

Myth: I can run just a couple LRMs and do totally fine in a non-dedicated build!
Truth: No you can't. If you're seeing those results, you're fighting very low bracket people, and there's not much getting around it. A single AMS will shred most of those missiles, and doubly so if it's on a 'mech between you and your victim (opposed to just your victim), as AMS will kick in and start taking missiles down from ceiling-height. You are lucky to even get 5% of your firepower through.
FALSE: 1 LRM 15 will get half its missiles through a single AMS. 4 LRM 5 without artemis can be handled by 5-6 mechs and can easily punch through a single AMS, has a high rate of fire, and only weighs 8+ammo tons (12 realistically) Also fast skirmisher mechs can move from one area of a battlefield to another to fire at targets without AMS (until AMS is common this is not an issue)

Again, this is not a problem for snipers or even brawlers (barring Streaks, the main reason people take AMS). I've honestly heard people claim that AMS should be able to completely negate LRM 'mechs because of the "investment." Let's look at that for a moment:

AMS user:
1.5 tons for the gun and ammo
Works on Streaks (way more threatening) and LRMs
Will cover every ally and target all enemy missiles in range.

.. a decent investment on a light, to be sure. So far, that's reasonable.

LRM user:
30 tons of weapons min. + 6 tons of ammo minimum + Artemis IV & TAG + Adv. Taget Decay.
Turned into a brick by a handful of medium 'mechs that happen to have AMS to avoid Streaks.

So yeah, LRMs have that to contend with, complete with people believing that the shared AMS is fine as is since 6 tons of total team weight should shut down 50+ tons on the other team from being useful.
Halfway TRUE an AMS is a fairly minor investment and should not totally shutdown LRMs, however right now it is about right as each 1.5 tons on AMS will shutdown about 6 tons of LRM (including ammo) However many mechs do not carry LRMs so that 1.5 tons will often end up being useless.

Myth: Improving LRMs will just encourage boating!
Truth: As LRMs require such specific engagement ranges with a huge minimum, you need to keep your speed up. Any 'mech going slower than 100 is at risk, likely 80, with LRMs. You can simply dart in and out of a Stalker's min/max and crush it while it is a huge paper weight, or two ECM 'mechs can get on it and shut it down since it can't even run fast enough to get back to the line. Huge LRM boats are never going to work in MW:O the way they are setup.
FALSE game mechanics encourage boating, LRMs strength or weakness has very very little to do with it. Some LRM boats can be very strong if played well (and not compared to the OP PPC we have at the moment but other more balanced weapons) and a Stalker LRM boat with 5-6 ML is hardly a huge paperweight at under 180m (though it may move like one lol).

Myth: LRM balance isn't that important.
Truth: As a major part of the "weapon ecosystem" yes they are. We need to make them viable to punish snipers that are moving out into the open, and to suppress attackers while we move brawlers into position. When LRMs were honestly overpowered in the last "LRM Apocalypse" there was a very sharp rise in brawler builds. By the end of the LRM Apocalypse (right before it was fixed) most good units had abandon LRMs outside of a single 'mech or two and gone to a mix of sniping & brawling. Brawling.

Yes, I am saying improved LRMs brought back brawlers, because they did. It is apart of the ecosystem.
TRUE LRMs are a unique weapon system that fills a critical role removing it is sort of like removing the scissors from a rock paper scissors game (yes this is a slight exaggeration).

Quick Myths
- TAG won't help you hit lights | YES IT DOES! The tracking + grouping is vital or you won't do a thing to fast movers!
YOU are WRONG
- LRMs go dumbfire before they hit you | NO THEY DON'T! If you think you see this, the LRM user lost lock!
YOU are WRONG though there are methods to circumvent this
- LRMs are just vague aiming at red boxes and pressing buttons! | SURE.. if you want the damage output of a flamer Spider, doubled by the fact 80% of your shots will miss as locks are lost.
CORRECT
- LRMs aren't supposed to be kill weapons! | ALREADY COVERED, but worth repeating: This meme needs to die. It's got no basis in BattleTech or MW:O. They should be exceptional kill weapons, in their niche environment (open terrain).
CORRECT
- LRMs hit me indirect all the time, and they kick the crap out of me! OP! | Cockpit shake and lots of blaring sounds =/= doing much damage.
TRUE and FALSE depends a lot on what type of cover you try to use, spotting, direction you are facing and many many other factors (cockpit shake does not mean you took much damage though 1 missile to your arm will cause this)

EDIT: I will update this post as more points get brought up in the thread and oh boy, I'm sure they will.

Edited by Ningyo, 28 June 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[blinkin]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 June 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Waste of time really. Too many people die to LRM's due to their own rampant stupidity.

what? you mean the lemming rush through the open field isn't a good plan?

[Solomon Ward]

Poll lacks choice "Stopped reading at LRMs are the hardest to use weapon in the game."

[Nicholas Carlyle]

blinkin, on 28 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

i like how you did this, BUT i don't entirely agree with some of your conclusions. in an entirely PUG environment i think you are completely right. however LRM are probably the most team work intensive weapons in the game. as a result their abilities are magnified greatly when you have a friend or two on skype, i think they are more effected by this than anything else in the game.

i run a 2x LRM20 hunchback 4SP and i only play it when my friends are on because otherwise it is almost useless (no one ever holds lock for more than a few seconds). the ECM umbrella is fairly pure concentrated BS, but otherwise as long as you have a decent spotter to hold targets you can easily tear down most targets. it does take more time but (if everyone is doing their job) you get to fire from relative safety and the suppression effects (blurring, noise, shake) are more effective than any other weapon (i specifically chose the 4SP to maximize these effects).

as far as a PUG weapon LRM may be more of a waste of tonnage than machine guns.

You need to elaborate a bit more on this.

Solo PUGGING, LRM's can either be a complete waste of time or reap utter devastation depending on who you get matched against.

Pick up 4 Mans, You'll see the same as solo PUGGING, depends on how good the random people you grouped with are.

Solid 4 Man, You'll do great because you are used to working together while using LRM's while preying on PUGS. This isn't really a function of LRM's, it's a function of Solid 4 Man's owning it up in the Solo Queue, you'd still be better off if the whole team had 3-4 PPC"s and Gauss Rifles.

8 Mans against real teams who practice, LRM's are basically non-existent unless it's a joke build/joke game. Because good players understand how to avoid them/mitigate them/get in their face and own them.