108 replies to this topic

[Johnny Reb]

Lightfoot, on 29 June 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

I agree. LRMs are the hardest to use weapon system, under-perform at present, require boating. Also have a hit detection bug since the hot-fix on 6/20.

I think indirect fire LRMs are about right, they just splatter around. However, when you have Artemis, BAP, TAG, and LoS they are too weak. They need to be a solid deterrent at this point if you have LRM30 or more and a valuable addition to a direct fire loadout if LRM30 or less are used.

I really don't want to spend the match LRM sniping, I want to move into the battle and mix it up, knowing that my Artie, BAP, TAG-ed LRM20-30 will not be worthless in LoS combat like it is now.

I think boating is a relative term to lrms. Yes to be effective you need 30 a salvo, min. That is basically with weight and ammo all my med can carry and my current effective quickdraw carries 35 a salvo. So I guess I boat lrms when most my wep tonnage is dedicated to that system, not the actual amount I am bringing.

[Johnny Reb]

Battlecruiser, on 29 June 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

lrm's are easy mode if you have critical thinking skills, understanding of the meta, and good spatial awareness (not to mention teammates that can tag for you on occasion)

so basically, yes, to good players who play with other good players they are easy mode, just like all of the other overpowering builds at the moment.

the major problem here is good players, much like in any exhibitional game or sport, make everything look just so damn easy regardless of its true nature because they spend time and effort to understand the game and get good at it, thus making their tools that much more effective.


so in short, lrm's are easy to use, but not as easy as dual ac/20 and ppc stacking due to the requirement for a target lock. And this means if you wish to avoid getting hit by lrm's run ecm or at the very least stay out of the open in regards to their trajectory, and you will be surprised at how ineffective lrm's become against you.

This also goes for snipers and it should always be #1 priority if you're attacking them to deliberately pick the most entrenched and cover rich route possible to deny them the advantage their range brings them. Sure they might still hurt up close but at least you'll be able to fight back - inside their comfort zone at that.

I don't think lrms are over powered. The time to kill someone in the open gives them plenty of time to say to them themselves I f'ed up bad move. Now 6 ppc hit I am dead and then its what, where, why so fast!

edit: what in this game isn't easy? LRMS do take situational awareness to be effective, something no other wep system does.

edit2: I feel lrms/ssrms are the easiest to use. Now making lrms effective still not hard if you understand the system. However, what is to understand with lasers and ballistic? I see it I click! Boom, if I have aim.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 29 June 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Johnny Reb, on 29 June 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

I think boating is a relative term to lrms. Yes to be effective you need 30 a salvo, min. That is basically with weight and ammo all my med can carry and my current effective quickdraw carries 35 a salvo. So I guess I boat lrms when most my wep tonnage is dedicated to that system, not the actual amount I am bringing.

30 a salvo is an entirely dedicated, single purpose 'mech in the medium category. One that is made into a 50 ton paperweight most of the time, currently, even after the buffs.

The sad part is there's no getting around it. I'd love to run a single LRM/15 build or with some other medium range weapons (there was a time that was actually quite good in beta, even with the slow flight speed, because it did a lot of damage and you could put a bunch of mid-range backups on an Atlas - quite a powerhouse, even if you did use them as MRMs) and the like.

But with super-damaging AMS that attacks every missile that goes within about 500m of it pretty much renders it a non-option, in particular with the shared AMS.

I actually put up a poll about reducing the AMS range by a considerable amount for allies, so that their help would be less noticeable and they wouldn't shoot ceiling-height missiles down anymore, but the anti-LRM crowd came around in force and turned it into a huge mess. In fact, that's what inspired me to create this thread in the first place - or at least was the final push.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 June 2013 - 01:24 AM.

[Johnny Reb]

I agree, if you want a fast effective medium or quickdraw, lrm mech you need to dedicate all but a ton or 2 to it.

edit: however, I think ams is good maybe a bit powerful and together it shuts me down but isnt that the point of ams together?

Edited by Johnny Reb, 30 June 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[RG Notch]

Victor Morson, on 30 June 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

30 a salvo is an entirely dedicated, single purpose 'mech in the medium category. One that is made into a 50 ton paperweight most of the time, currently, even after the buffs.

The sad part is there's no getting around it. I'd love to run a single LRM/15 build or with some other medium range weapons (there was a time that was actually quite good in beta, even with the slow flight speed, because it did a lot of damage and you could put a bunch of mid-range backups on an Atlas - quite a powerhouse, even if you did use them as MRMs) and the like.

But with super-damaging AMS that attacks every missile that goes within about 500m of it pretty much renders it a non-option, in particular with the shared AMS.

I actually put up a poll about reducing the AMS range by a considerable amount for allies, so that their help would be less noticeable and they wouldn't shoot ceiling-height missiles down anymore, but the anti-LRM crowd came around in force and turned it into a huge mess. In fact, that's what inspired me to create this thread in the first place - or at least was the final push.

I love the comments about the "anti LRM" crowd, as if this thread isn't filled with the "pro LRM" crowd.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Shalune, on 29 June 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

The ability to counter them is also greatly magnified by teamplay and higher skill levels. If you are not sticking very close to your group you will get picked apart by enemy lights, if you stick with your group you share their firing lanes and are just less efficient at killing things. LRMs are a joke in organized play. They can perform very well in low ELO pug brackets, especially with spotters.

This is really what it comes down too.

I'd like to see someone come debate this particular issue with some videos or something.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

i use a single lrm 20 on my atlas-d because I use a juiced up version of the stock loadout. You wouldn't think it but it actually comes in handy.

it's really weird, sometimes i get these shadow glimmers of what the game was intended to be, and it makes me sad inside because the game has really run away from that concept, with requirement to stack particular weapons, and run seismic sensor if you want to win. The meta has gone away from role warfare and into gimmick warfare.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 30 June 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[PostalPatriot]

curious as to why you think the bap is needed, seems like the Bap has far to short of range to really benifit an lrm boat, i can see it for streak users but isn't it like 250 meters?

Edited by PostalPatriot, 30 June 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Ningyo]

If an ECM light is running around your legs and you have BAP you can still fire LRMs at other mechs further away. Without it you cannot fire LRMs at all. Also it raises the range you can acquire targets at without a spotter though at those ranges it tends not to be that big of a deal due to travel times.

[Victor Morson]

Ningyo, on 30 June 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

If an ECM light is running around your legs and you have BAP you can still fire LRMs at other mechs further away. Without it you cannot fire LRMs at all. Also it raises the range you can acquire targets at without a spotter though at those ranges it tends not to be that big of a deal due to travel times.

This, and the fact that BAP also speeds up target lock time by a great deal. If you're trying to get a lock and fire on a target under ECM, you want that lock ASAP to have a chance. So BAP is really important. I have tried a few builds without one just to squeeze on more punch, and I've regretted it every single time. Absolutely nothing sucks worse than a Commando nobody wants to shoot at that won't leave you alone, totally bricking your 'mech.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 June 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Ningyo]

Incorrect BAP does not speed up target lock time, It speeds up target information gathering time, which allows you to see the enemies weapon loadout, and paperdoll. These are very different things.\

I was wrong see below

Edited by Ningyo, 30 June 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[blinkin]

Ningyo, on 30 June 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Incorrect BAP does not speed up target lock time, It speeds up target information gathering time, which allows you to see the enemies weapon loadout, and paperdoll. These are very different things.

i know for sure that it makes locking targets quicker and i haven't seen anything that suggests it does anything with target data.

http://mwo.gamepedia...le_Active_Probe :
25% decreased target level acquisition time^[3]

[Ningyo]

Ah sorry I was wrong there I was taking it from the taking it from the in game description on BAP "speeds up targeting data". Is that true too?

Oh and found this its from January, but is probably still accurate, unless it got a change when they added its anti ECM capabilities?

Quote

Thomas Dziegielewski

GetTargetingRangeBoost() - 25%
GetTargetingGaintTimeBoost() - 25%
GetUnpoweredMechDetectionRange() - 120m

straight from code

Edited by Ningyo, 30 June 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Moira]

Hello.

Is it just me, but has there been some sort of RNG fix for missile for this weekend ? Due Im starting to see numbers either extreme low or extreme high while just using missiles intentionally. Like: I have shot 1500 missiles in long game and used some lasers too and have kept my target locks for long time and ended up dealing just 350ish damage or the other that game was ok long too, but I felt that I didnt get all target locks done properly and didnt even use lasers and ended topping 550ish damage with heh heh 5x LRM5's =) and some 800 missiles used. Weird indeed.

One thing I have noticed in my stats that LRM15 hit% hasnt changed at all and my LRM5's has gone up by 7%. I have shot both really alot, before this weekend and in this weekend too so what has changed. Since I dont know at all.

Edited by Moira, 30 June 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[Dagger6T6]

great post about LRMs...



LRMs require no skill?

[Ningyo]

A couple things Moira,

First there are hit detection bugs with LRMs that will sometimes cause multiple volleys of missiles to do little to no damage to an enemy. This is likely related to the hit detection bugs other weapons are facing so I do not believe it is unique to them.

Secondly your LRM 5 hit rate is probably increasing because they have a very small spread even smaller than LRM15 with Artemis and TAG. Also you may just be getting better at choosing targets (large slow mechs with worse cover for instance).

See you decided to try out the 5LRM 3 ERPPC stalker? (btw can switch 1 ERPPC for 3x MPL(ML) if you want as then you can do Headshots if the enemy gets close and overheats or is dumb enough to stop.)

[Victor Morson]

Ningyo, on 30 June 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

First there are hit detection bugs with LRMs that will sometimes cause multiple volleys of missiles to do little to no damage to an enemy. This is likely related to the hit detection bugs other weapons are facing so I do not believe it is unique to them.

This is definitely worth bringing up. There is an issue where once a target is into internals, missiles will still impact / damage armor but refuse to damage the internals, even with direct hits. This can result in 'mechs you simply cannot kill, despite having a dark red CT and missiles pouring into it. It's semi-frequent, and a lot of you LRM users that haven't noticed it - it's likely because this only happens to really critical mechs, and a teammate will probably kill them before you get a chance to realize what's going on.

The only times I can say this has happened for sure involved one on one fights, generally in the open. It's probably happened a ton when I've pugged around (as I don't generally run missiles in serious games), and I just didn't notice because the target would die too quick.

EDIT: I put up a ticket on it a while ago.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 June 2013 - 11:27 PM.

[Ningyo]

This can happen preventing damage to armor too.

The most noticeable case for me, I had a enemy stalker moving very slowly away from me in canyons map started about 250m ended about 400m for this then I left for another target.

During this time I fired 7 volleys of 70 missiles each at it (My LRM 70 highlander I was testing missile damage on, btw not a great mech). it had no AMS and no other mechs were near by with AMS. I had Artemis + perfect TAG lock the entire time.

On the screen at least almost every single missile exploded on the stalker, and every time the enemies paperdoll flashed damage nearly everywhere, and my cursor turned red.

At beginning it had all yellow armor, at end it had all yellow armor with a barely orange CT.

I have had similar happen many times though none quite as absurdly obvious. This seems to go in runs on a mech so many volleys in a row will do almost nothing, but it is difficult to tell until 3+ volleys have been wasted as your computer is telling you they are hitting.

[Moira]

Ningyo, on 30 June 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

A couple things Moira,

First there are hit detection bugs with LRMs that will sometimes cause multiple volleys of missiles to do little to no damage to an enemy. This is likely related to the hit detection bugs other weapons are facing so I do not believe it is unique to them.

Secondly your LRM 5 hit rate is probably increasing because they have a very small spread even smaller than LRM15 with Artemis and TAG. Also you may just be getting better at choosing targets (large slow mechs with worse cover for instance).

See you decided to try out the 5LRM 3 ERPPC stalker? (btw can switch 1 ERPPC for 3x MPL(ML) if you want as then you can do Headshots if the enemy gets close and overheats or is dumb enough to stop.)

Ningyo thanks for that, but I do consider myself to be player that has played enough to understand that. But the point Im trying prefering to is that I know this effect that you said and understand the meaning of good targetlock time - still Im getting some weird numbers in damage tab. Due when I think I did well and ended up doing mediorce level of damage.This isnt new because I know I can be wrong.

But when hell (or any RNG factors) raises it's ugly head and I know I possible couldnt do this much damage specially in my 5x LRM5 Catapult w/o TAG. I lost targetlock in middle of missile flight, targets hiding behind buildings and one or two had AMS and still the damage tab shows over 500ish and I didnt even fire more than 2/3's missiles. This is the problem that keep's pecking me - sure I got 3 kills and blew up more than few pieces/parts from enemies, but it doesnt just make sense when most of the game you have this feeling that you know you could have done alot better.

And I know this problem you talk about that enemy is busted open and you fire and fire volley after volley from "pointblank" (lets call it the 180-450m with LoS) range and target simply doesnt want to blow up. I suggest that make a chainfire key for missiles too, I have noted that full salvo's sometimes hits everything else than the needed part while chainfiring does actually far better. And if nothing else Chainfiring missiles does look good on the screen =) (try 6x LRM5 that does indeed feel good and work)

Im thinking that shooting a full salvo might have a single target roll where chainfiring every missile launcher gets its own.

Edited by Moira, 01 July 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Dagger6T6]

Victor Morson, on 30 June 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

This is definitely worth bringing up. There is an issue where once a target is into internals, missiles will still impact / damage armor but refuse to damage the internals, even with direct hits. This can result in 'mechs you simply cannot kill, despite having a dark red CT and missiles pouring into it. It's semi-frequent, and a lot of you LRM users that haven't noticed it - it's likely because this only happens to really critical mechs, and a teammate will probably kill them before you get a chance to realize what's going on.

The only times I can say this has happened for sure involved one on one fights, generally in the open. It's probably happened a ton when I've pugged around (as I don't generally run missiles in serious games), and I just didn't notice because the target would die too quick.

EDIT: I put up a ticket on it a while ago.

I would like to echo this point as I have noticed it on many occasions. Once a target is crit it can seem to stop taking damage to internals, or suddenly damage is spread to other hit locations instead. I typically don't use LRMs at the extreme range, preferring to midrange brawl in the 300m-700m range so I have experienced it first hand a number of times.

Glad others have noticed this as well.