38 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

And I am entirely on topic. The 4X, for example, is not just gimped by speed, it is gimped by poor balance of the MG. If they were done right, those 2 MG's were be nice to keep on the 4X as a close in weapon vs. other Light Mechs.

And it would still be too slow.

A stock-mech mode is completely off topic for a discussion about a needed change to the mechlab, since mechlab doesn't exist in stock mech mode.

[General Taskeen]

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

And it would still be too slow.

A stock-mech mode is completely off on topic for a discussion about a needed change to the mechlab, since mechlab does doesn't exists in stock mech mode in a limited fashion.

Fixed that for you.

You missed the point of everything i said. With proper balance, its engine limit wouldn't matter in Mechlab.

Some Light Clan Mechs are just as slow as a Raven 2X and 4X, or some other Innersphere Lightmechs, so the problem will only get more apparent.

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 June 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[One Medic Army]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

You missed the point of everything i said. With proper balance, its engine limit wouldn't matter in Mechlab.

No matter what you do, so long as you use TT build rules with engine tonnages and speeds, there will be optimal points.
The slow ravens are so far from the optimal point that there is very little that can be done for them. Period.

[Cymbaline]

Dashwood Fox, on 28 June 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

I sure hope this potential buff is true.



I use the 2X a lot still too. I used it in the last tournament in rotation with 3 Jenners. But today I wouldn't bring it in a competitive 8-man drop. Other than having more missile tubes the 2X has no advantage over a JR7 K or D. Because of it's slow speed and lack of JJs it doesn't make an ideal scout either. It's too slow to escape, especially when there are 3 mediums that can run it down. It's only effective role is basically fire support for a small group engaged in a brawl. And that's only if a weight restriction is in effect for that match. Otherwise there are so many other better options.

I found a (relatively) effective build for the 4X: 2 MPLS, SRM6+Artemis, 2 MGs, 5 JJs, 245 XL

Yup once you commit into a fight with the 2X you're in it until it's over for better or worse. There's no escape from a light or a fast medium.

I'm also worried now about the terrain changes coming up. The 2X is going to feel this the most I think. Quick getaways up a slope are not going to work anywhere near as well as they did before. Without jumpjets it's going to be hard to get into the best position and I will probably end up getting in the way of the bigger mechs and getting hit in the back by them which happens more often than I'd like. It will be interesting to see how the whole system works.

I have never played 8 mans but I would bring my 2X to one I think. I do twice as well in the 3L but there's something about the 2X that makes me focus more and I feel some pride for the junker when I come up with a big game.

[General Taskeen]

One Medic Army, on 28 June 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

No matter what you do, so long as you use TT build rules with engine tonnages and speeds, there will be optimal points.
The slow ravens are so far from the optimal point that there is very little that can be done for them. Period.

A Panther is 64.8 km/h.

An UrbanMech is 32 km/h.

Both are slower than a Raven-2X or Raven-4X.

What do these two Mechs have in TT that offset their incredibly slow speed? Or what advantages are they good at in a given circumstance (I.E., choosing an Urban map, their weapon loadout)?

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 June 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[One Medic Army]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

A Panther is 64.8 km/h.

An UrbanMech is 32 km/h.

What do these two Mechs have in TT that offset their incredibly slow speed?

Nothing if the alternative to piloting one is piloting a Cataphract with more guns, more armor, and faster than the Urbanmech. Oh, and the 3D Phract has more jump distance too.

The TT advantage is simply this: Low BV, Low CBills, Low Tonnage.
Until matchmaker includes these values for balancing they will suck regardless.

Bottom line: Stock Phract-3D destroys Stock Urbie, and stock Grand Dragon destroys stock Panther.
When they're both equally weighted options, why would you ever take the slower lighter mech with less armor and fewer guns?

Edited by One Medic Army, 28 June 2013 - 06:09 PM.

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

A Panther is 64.8 km/h.

An UrbanMech is 32 km/h.

What do these two Mechs have in TT that offset their incredibly slow speed?

Urbanmech is cheap. Panther has more firepower than most mechs of its size. The problem is that a slow, heavily-armed light can just be rebuilt better as a slow, well-armed medium; which can be replaced by a slow, well-armed heavy; and so on.

Edited by FupDup, 28 June 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Fixed that for you.

You missed the point of everything i said. With proper balance, its engine limit wouldn't matter in Mechlab.

Some Light Clan Mechs are just as slow as a Raven 2X and 4X, or some other Innersphere Lightmechs, so the problem will only get more apparent.

Stock Mech mode wouldn't have a limited mechlab. It would have no mechlab. Otherwise the mechs wouldn't be stock, and the stock mech mode wouldn't be.

And speed requirement in lights is directly related to realtime aiming not any numerical balancing issue. If you cannot go faster than 140kph in a light in MW:O then anyone without palsy will be able to nuke compartments off you like there's no tomorrow. No numerical balancing will change that fact.

[General Taskeen]

FupDup, on 28 June 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Urbanmech is cheap. Panther has more firepower than most mechs of its size. The problem is that a slow, heavily-armed light can just be rebuilt better as a slow, well-armed medium; which can be replaced by a slow, well-armed heavy; and so on.

And both are good in certain circumstances. A Panther can evade weapon fire by quick vaults with Jump Jets, same with an Urban. A Raven-4X should be able to do quick vaults for evasion with 5 Jump Jets up to 150m, same as a Jenner. But they hover in MWO, which totally GIMPS a slow Raven. Its ballistic MG's are also pointless.

There are more issues than just a made up Engine Limits for Mechs for the Raven-2X and Raven-4X. There are many combining issues that cause these problems.

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Stock Mech mode wouldn't have a limited mechlab. It would have no mechlab. Otherwise the mechs wouldn't be stock, and the stock mech mode wouldn't be.

No numerical balancing will change that fact.

1. Disagree. Different definitions of stock modes.

2. Disagree. Balancing of equipment and weapons can help.

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 June 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

And both are good in certain circumstances. A Panther can evade weapon fire by quick vaults with Jump Jets, same with an Urban. A Raven-4X should be able to do quick vaults for evasion with 5 Jump Jets up to 150m, same as a Jenner. But they hover in MWO, which totally GIMPS a slow Raven. Its ballistic MG's are also pointless.

There are more issues than just a made up Engine Limits for Mechs for the Raven-2X and Raven-4X. There are many combining issues that cause these problems.

I agree with the evasive-jump jets and useful MGs for the 4X. However, at the end of the day a slow light has the same strengths and weaknesses as a heavy but much lower (heavy has more firepower and armor with roughly the same speed).

It's sort like trying to turn a Treb into a mock-light by giving it a huge engine and a few ML + SSRM2 for weaponry; it gets beaten by a Jenner that is faster and better armed for that role. The Jenner is more optimal for that role.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Dashwood Fox, on 28 June 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

The RVN-2X and RVN-4X need a slight engine buff to make them more viable as scouts. I'm not asking that they be given the ability to mount a 295XL (though that would be nice) but something like a 280XL would be appreciated.

That way they could at least match the speed of a Trebuchet 3C or Centurion D. I find it kind of ridiculous that mediums of that size (that aren't Cicadas) can outrun them as is.

I would rather a speed decrease for the Raven 3L

[General Taskeen]

FupDup, on 28 June 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

It's sort like trying to turn a Treb into a mock-light by giving it a huge engine and a few ML + SSRM2 for weaponry; it gets beaten by a Jenner that is faster and better armed for that role. The Jenner is more optimal for that role.

I disagree, a slow Light Mech still has a role. It is not a hunter killer, but a limited scout in a supporting role, not an all out attack, go battle all the Light Mechs role. I tested the viability of a Commando at 97.2 km/h for many months, and it is optimal for the role described. However, since SRMs are half-jokes now (again this goes back to weapon balance), its not always worth it. I have not bothered using a Raven 4X, not because of its speed gimp, but because it can't use all its hardpoints or Jumpjets effectively. The 2X, on the other hand, is decent even at slow speeds with its basic load-out, especially if you are playing with others.

Slow Light Mechs truly also need a decent map to shine on as well. On an open battlefield, they are gonna die a lot quicker, which is canon anyways.

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 June 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

And both are good in certain circumstances. A Panther can evade weapon fire by quick vaults with Jump Jets, same with an Urban. A Raven-4X should be able to do quick vaults for evasion with 5 Jump Jets up to 150m, same as a Jenner. But they hover in MWO, which totally GIMPS a slow Raven. Its ballistic MG's are also pointless.

Jumpjets as they're implemented don't let you evade weapon fire. If anything they make you easier to hit since you're stuck on a predictable parabolic.

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

1. Disagree. Different definitions of stock modes.

No. Stock mode = stock mechs. That's what it means. You want to invent some fictional mode, pick a name that isn't taken.

Daisu Saikoro, on 28 June 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

I would rather a speed decrease for the Raven 3L

You know, you're right - the game does need more mechs to be useless. Ideally we'll only have one mech in each weight class, right?

[General Taskeen]

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Jumpjets as they're implemented don't let you evade weapon fire. If anything they make you easier to hit since you're stuck on a predictable parabolic.

[/size]

No. Stock mode = stock mechs. That's what it means. You want to invent some fictional mode, pick a name that isn't taken.

You know, you're right - the game does need more mechs to be useless. Ideally we'll only have one mech in each weight class, right?

1. Which is why I said equipment/weapon balance can make it better, even at slow speeds.

2. Disagree. Stock-mode means exactly that, limited customization, but not completely cut off. No one made you the inventor of your Stock Mode definition. i can call it what I wish.

3. If you're not good in a slow Raven-3L, or a slow Mech, then that's your problem. Part of it, is also not your problem, it is also how aspects of balance were handled by the devs by lack of truly making a fully-packaged Raven-3L actually worthwhile. I'm talking ECM, BAP, TAG, and NARC. All things a Raven-3L comes with, and what its main customized role? ECM + ML + SSRM2's at the fastest speed possible. Balance issues caused that to happen.

There are two sides to the customization debate. Those that are used to a Mech Lab will always say exactly what you are saying, that Mechs are worthless because of a need for some aspect to be fully customized (I.E., what this topic is about, other Ravens going fast, or any other Mech). By taking a wider look at the issue, I believe I made valid points.

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 June 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[PanzerMagier]

Yes please. Stop this nonsense where the 3L raven is the only useful one. It's not cool PGI.
Give the good ravens their much needed speed.

[Gaan Cathal]

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

2. Disagree. Stock-mode means exactly that, limited customization, but not completely cut off. No one made you the inventor of your Stock Mode definition. i can call it what I wish.

I've not invented anything, "Stock Mode" is widely accepted as meaning a game mode in which the only mechs used are stock fits, hence the name.

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

3. If you're not good in a slow Raven-3L, or a slow Mech, then that's your problem. Part of it, is also not your problem, it is also how aspects of balance were handled by the devs by lack of truly making a fully-packaged Raven-3L actually worthwhile. I'm talking ECM, BAP, TAG, and NARC. All things a Raven-3L comes with, and what its main customized role? ECM + ML + SSRM2's at the fastest speed possible. Balance issues caused that to happen.

I can pull out pretty good numbers in a -2X. Doesn't mean a -3L isn't drastically better despite carrying a lighter energy load. The difference there isn't to do with SSRM2>ML or ECM being op, it's entirely the speed.

General Taskeen, on 28 June 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

There are two sides to the customization debate. Those that are used to a Mech Lab will always say exactly what you are saying, that Mechs are worthless because of a need for some aspect to be fully customized (I.E., what this topic is about, other Ravens going fast, or any other Mech). By taking a wider look at the issue, I believe I made valid points.

The problem here is, fundamentally, that speed is essential to light mechs in a world without BV because it's the trade off for increased tonnage. As a rule, the heavier you are, the slower you go. That's the payoff for dropping tons, speed.

A full speed RVN-2X is slower than a full speed CN9-D, with a 15 ton difference in payload, plus associated increases in armour cap. If you're willing to slow the CN9-D down to RVN-2X speeds the weight difference with engines and required heatsinks in place is a clear five tons.

[Deathlike]

One Medic Army, on 28 June 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

There's good and bad mechs in stock mode too.
The 2X and 4X will still be terrible in stock mode.
Stock mode is something nice, but don't act like chassis and loadout imbalances aren't present there too.

Madcat-D, screwing up stock matches since... MW3.

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

A full speed RVN-2X is slower than a full speed CN9-D, with a 15 ton difference in payload, plus associated increases in armour cap. If you're willing to slow the CN9-D down to RVN-2X speeds the weight difference with engines and required heatsinks in place is a clear five tons.

The RVN-2X is a poor man's Jenner-K... and the Jenner-K is still better.

[PEEFsmash]

Both of these mechs need speed boosts at a minimum.

[aniviron]

RVN-2X and 4X need a speed buff to stay competitive. It's a shame there is no other real way to balance them, because I do find the idea of a relatively-hard-hitting light appealing, but the way this game is set up, they are bad unless they are fast, and that's the end of it.