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Pgi's Idealism Is Where Game-Balance Problems Come From


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#121 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:00 AM

View PostThe Cheese, on 29 June 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Quote

Tarl Cabot, on 29 June 2013 - 11:35 PM, said: As for PGI thinking PPC/range fighting is boring, all of their videos have been in brawling situations. No wonder they doubled the armor :P

Be honest though. Watching a video of mechs sniping from 1000m is dull as a sack of doorknobs. Doesn't make for good advertising.


If it was simply pure sniping to show off something, probably. But if it was tied in as long range combat while slowing moving in would be a different story. Their current videos look more like FFA than something tactical going happening. It isn't surprising so many newbies who are also new to the franchise are confused about many things.

Or to say, compare their original 3015 footage vs MWO game play. One exhibited some sort of tactical sense while the other is just throw people into the blender.

This is where they really should allow specific elements of the UI to be displayed on a separate screen, like the overview, or at least do it internally to show a different sense of the game.

#122 Nik Reaper

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:02 AM

View Postxengk, on 30 June 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:


I rather play MS Gundam Online than SD Gundam Online.
51 vs 51 battlefield
Alternative objectives in battlefield
Commander mode
PvE scenario mode



Except for the crappy graphics and a simplified gameplay (read: not enough money pored in to it) that looks like everything this game should have from gameplay elements perspective.

Check the review: http://steparu.com/r...t-gundam-review

I really wish they'd introduce after launch a mech commander suite so that one player would be the +1, a commander with some utility functions.

#123 Raso

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:11 AM

View PostNik Reaper, on 30 June 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:


Except for the crappy graphics and a simplified gameplay (read: not enough money pored in to it) that looks like everything this game should have from gameplay elements perspective.

Check the review: http://steparu.com/r...t-gundam-review

I really wish they'd introduce after launch a mech commander suite so that one player would be the +1, a commander with some utility functions.

Hmmmm..... Looks like more than a single mech is viable in that game. Can't be that bad!

#124 El Bandito

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:37 AM

I still cringe whenever I remember PGI's reassurance to us that the ECM is perfect as is.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 June 2013 - 11:37 AM.


#125 C E Dwyer

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:48 AM

View Postxengk, on 30 June 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:


I rather play MS Gundam Online than SD Gundam Online.
51 vs 51 battlefield
Alternative objectives in battlefield
Commander mode
PvE scenario mode





Well with that coming out we can I think wave bye bye to the griffin and Wolverine, though hopefully i'm wrong

#126 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:43 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 29 June 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

I've recently been thinking about why PGI makes such blatantly bad balance choices; why they don't understand that some mechs are trash; what game are they playing, because it definitely isn't the same one we all are.

I think their issue is idealism. They envision a balance/mechanic change, and they think players should embrace it in a certain way.

What they don't think is, how will players who want to maximize their chances of winning modify their mechs or tactics in response to a balance/meta change.

Garth, for example, is known for expressing that PPC sniping must be boring, and not understanding why people play that way. Well, because that maximizes your chances of winning. If Garth had a high enough ELO to be in PPC-boat-filled matches all day, I bet he would rage/quit too.

Their problem is they make these modifications with an idealized view of what players should do, without realizing that players will do whatever they CAN do to kill and win. Anybody playing PGI's "ideal" tactics and mechs will suffer a disproportionate number of losses because the first player-group have superior armaments and methods.

Idealism leads us to do dumb things in the real-world. For example, ship a bunch of food to poor African nations, thinking it will help the common people. Nope, much of the time, that food ends up under the control of corrupt government, or worse, warlords, who use it to control the hungry population even more than they already do.


The straight poop is you must balance the game with the competitive player in mind. If you do that, then all players will benefit, because the game will have reasonable equipment. Don't just expect enough people to go "I really like using a combination of missiles and AC/10s" even though that is ******* stupid. Those people won't like their LRM+AC/10 mechs after getting stomped in every game.



I think your wrong about idealism driving the Devs "balancing".

First of all, PGI is operation with an existing IP where the fan base expects certain things to remain Canon to the IP. They have already taken huge liberties with that almost to the breaking point. If they start making big changes outside of the IP, they will lose a ton of players. Remember the whole point of using an existing IP is because of the existing fan base.

Second, the entire game encourages people to find the very best builds to win. That is what the mechlab is all about. You "fix" the PPC so that people don't want to boat it, that is fine because they will just move on to LLs. "Fix" those and it will be MLs. "Fix" those and it will LRMs. Basically people will ALWAY gravitate to the builds that are most successful and unless every weapon and chassis in the game is exactly the same there will alway be some builds or weapons that is better than another.

Now that being said, the overall balance in the game isn't too bad and is miles and miles better than it was 6 months ago. People just need to quit complaining and start learning new tactics. For example I can tell you from experience that a PPC (or any weapon) mounted to the torso is hard to hit moving targets with if they aren't just blindly marching straight at you. Quad PPCs are no different and those mechs with these builds are highly vunlerable to fast mediums and heavies (and even lights in a pack) who are smart enough to use terrain and speed to flank them.

Also, lets face it those builds most vulnerable to snipers are other snipers because they typically just stand over a ridge looking for targets and the targets they are looking for??? Yep....other mechs just standing on ridges looking for targets.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 30 June 2013 - 12:45 PM.


#127 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:50 PM

View PostCathy, on 30 June 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:



Well with that coming out we can I think wave bye bye to the griffin and Wolverine, though hopefully i'm wrong



Got to admit, if they release it in America, I would probably give it a shot...looks fun. Still it would be a totally different gameplay experience than MWO.

#128 Pinselborste

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 30 June 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:




I think your wrong about idealism driving the Devs "balancing".

First of all, PGI is operation with an existing IP where the fan base expects certain things to remain Canon to the IP. They have already taken huge liberties with that almost to the breaking point. If they start making big changes outside of the IP, they will lose a ton of players. Remember the whole point of using an existing IP is because of the existing fan base.



the battletech IP means the art and the lore, not some TT stats. TT stats where made to work with the TT game, not with a realtime game thats based on aiming skill and so on.

Having its own stats that are balanced for the game mechanics mwo has wouldnt make it less battletech than a game that uses TT stats. its about the Feeling and not about what a rulebook from another game says

#129 jeffsw6

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 30 June 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I think your wrong about idealism driving the Devs "balancing".

First of all, PGI is operation with an existing IP where the fan base expects certain things to remain Canon to the IP. They have already taken huge liberties with that almost to the breaking point. If they start making big changes outside of the IP, they will lose a ton of players. Remember the whole point of using an existing IP is because of the existing fan base.

There is no aiming in TT. If you shoot six PPCs in TT, first of all, some of them will probably miss; and second of all, the ones that hit will probably hit different sections of the enemy's armor.

If you want TT armament values then you should favor random, cone-of-fire, or third-person auto-aim type approaches where aiming at a certain area of the enemy mech does not affect which sections of that enemy are damaged by successful hits.

I am so sick of hearing about how straying from TT is the problem. No, it isn't. The ability to aim combined with too much adherence to TT values is the problem.

#130 xengk

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:53 AM

View PostCathy, on 30 June 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Well with that coming out we can I think wave bye bye to the griffin and Wolverine, though hopefully i'm wrong


MSGO has already been out in Japan since Dec 2012, I have been playing it on and off.
Hard to play full time due to communication barrier and to grind up the material to upgrade my MS.
Stock MS dies to 2~3 shots or get instagib by a commander's map weapon or AI Ace pilot.

Also its IP Blocked, so you will need a VPN service to get in.

#131 jeffsw6

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:41 AM

I don't always blatantly bump a forum post, but when I do, I make sure it is when PGI Paul has just returned from vacation.

Read this thread, Paul, and give some thought to the idealism that PGI has consistently displayed with regard to balance changes; and the failures it has produced. I am hopeful for MW:O, but unless you guys have radically altered the way you perceive the game and its armaments, you may not fix much. This thread may alter your perception.

#132 Vassago Rain

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

View PostRaso, on 29 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:


It's not undermining them. They have set up these imaginary rules that they can't do exactly what you are doing. If they want to be competitive they need to get with the meta! It's their own fault for not playing to win.


Funny story, this is called WAAC: Winning At All Costs.

AKA, cheating. In warhammer, there's no rule that says you can't interpret special abilities such and such. It's never enforced that miniatures are moved the precise distance.

In something like MWO, you can't do this, because the game itself enforces PTW on its own. That is, playing to win. I can't cheat you out of distance with my guns, because I'm not allowed to measure or roll anything. So PPCs are godtier, and the only choice you have is how many of them you use. I take zero.

#133 TurboChickenMan

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:41 PM

I don't know if this is really PGI's train of thought, but going by the decisions that we've seen, it's a definite possibility...

:)





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